buying an 2000 X22, need opinions

[blindside]

Hey guys, I'm a wakeboarder in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area and looking at buying an 2000 epic X22 on next monday.  What do you think about the wake, i don't mind throwing in extra fat sacs but don't want to if i don't have to.  No one around here really knows much about these boats and I saw this site and thought i'd check it out.  There is allot of discussion about the s22's and the 22's but not the X22's.  This boat I'm gonna buy is loaded with all the options (tower, tower speakers,cockpit heater, perfect pass, the works. the thing has less than 200 hrs and always stored inside.  The reason i say next monday is cause we're going to take it out on the water Saturday for a water test drive.

Any info or links about this model would be great, thanx. Brent

[phenom_1819]

Brent-  I just bought a 2001 X22 a few months back, and this weekend was my first ride behind it... but here's what I can tell you about it:

First, I am an experienced wakeboarder...and have ridden behind pretty much everything out there (other than the new X-Star, dammit!).

In short: the X22 wake is good, but small (even with the ballast full). Shape is not rampy, but not steep...right in between.  It is a buildable wake and has good pop, but you'd be adding additional fat sacks.

The longer version:
Sizewise, the wake is not very big, even with the ballast full.  But the shape is just right...and that's what's most important.  I usually run with a big crew, so will have a lot of people on board and don't think size will be a problem.  But for the days when it's just a couple of us in the boat, I'm going to throw a couple of side-sacks in addition to the ballast-- that should get the wake just about right.

As far as the wake shape (in comparison to other direct drive boats), it is pretty rampy, but firm.  A rampy wake (v-drives) is good if you want to build it up -- you can get a rampy wake bigger (if you have the space for more weight, this is a problem with a lot of v-drives). If you have too steep a wake, it will break to white-whitewater with weight.  Most direct drive boats have a steeper wake.  Most v-drives have a more rampy wake.  Rampy can accomodate more weight, but a steep wake will give more pop (this all comes down to personal preference).

Generally, the flatter the bottom of a boat, the steeper the wake will be; and the more V a boat has, the more rampy the wake will be.  Not always the case (the X-stars and Natiques, for example), but generally...

Without rambling too much, the wake is very similar to the wake behind the Moomba Mobius V. You can probably find a lot of reviews on that wake (check the discussion boards at www.wakeworld.com)...the hull shape between the two boats is also very similar (except one has engine in back, one engine in the middle). It is one of the cleanest, firmer wakes I've ridden, and the X22 wake is nearly identical.

Good luck with the purchase!!!  If that is the boat from boattrader.com, it has been online for a while, and you should be able to talk them down a bit, just FYI.

-Cal

[toyotafreak]

You've got a local dealership - Phil Dill boats, and I've met the warranty writer, a dude named Greg Gaudin. He's been with them since the Toyota days and is still able to get parts. I know they don't know how to install towers there, but Greg helped me get ahold of some important Toyota Marine info (a lot of that is posted at this site now.)

If you're not gonna be happy with anything less than a pro-level wake, go get another boat. Even the ex-Toyota team has said that you can't get to the size as an older X-Star, and I've heard the SAN can really handle some serious ballast despite being super peaky. If the wake is the most important thing, you'd probably be better off with either the MC or the Natique - if for no other reason, there's a larger body of opinion to reference. I'd assume we're roughly equivalent to the Malibus.

Take some sacks with you Monday and ride behind it. Pay close attention to Cyclone's recipe: fat seat (1300 lbs) and that's it. If you're a real wake monger, go find four regular fat sacks - that's how they do it at the Wakeboard Camp, right guys? This test would also let you see what the engine can handle with a stock prop.

No matter waht you decide, please write back and let us know what you thought.

[phenom_1819]

Derek knows the boats much better than I. But pro-size wakes are over-rated (and over-priced).   I didn't buy the boat to have a pro wake -- besides, rider ability matters a lot more than wake size. I bought the boat because it's roomy, rides well, and if it threw a good wake, that was a bonus.  (You will eventually plateau as a rider anyway, and wake size won't make much of a difference).

For the price range this boat is in, and especially for being a direct drive, it throws a great out-of-the-box wake.  What's not there can be built -- like Derek says -- with about 1500 lbs. of weight. I haven't done this yet, but with the next paycheck, I just might.  

[blindside]

My favorite wake has to be the malibu wakesetter lsv... If it is like that than i would be happy.

[toyotafreak]

Don't let my longwindedness lead you into thinking I know what I'm talking about.

One SAN guy I've ridden with bought his specifically for the wake it throws. The other SAN owner I've ridden with loves his wake, but bought the boat simply because his last boat (a Natique) was a perfect boat for him, treated him awesome, never broke, etc.; had no choice but to follow with another.

I keep hearing that so many advanced riders choose their boat by its wake. They might also give a little weight towards layout and price, but wake is the main discriminator. In my eyes, you'd have to be pretty hard core for that.

A friend of mine has a pair of kids that he's pretty much bought around. He ended up with a Centurion, and besides important stuff like ride and layout, he wanted to make sure that the wake would be good without any fat sacs. It's a bigger boat than the SAN, with much more room, etc., and sure enough, I doubt there'll ever be sacs littering the floor - it throws a fun wake stock.

Seems to me that two types of people will gravitate towards the Epics: 1) someone who can't pass up the value in terms of how much boat you get for the price, and 2) someone who appreciates having a unique boat that's maybe the best-built towboat ever.

The value hunter has done great since Toyota pulled out, and will continue to do better as the years go by. Resale prices should drop further, and at the same time, the boats will age MUCH better than their MC, SAN, BU peers. These two factors will combine to mean that in a few years, someone like myself might be forced into getting rid of an eight year-old boat that's mechanically new and cosmetically clean for a price WAY below it's intrinsic value. I'm sure this seller will be pissed and curse the Toy, the buyer will be amazed at what he got for what he had.

Even today, you're probably getting one hell of a boat for what's being asked. I paid top dollar for mine, but to get MC or SAN to build what I got, they'd have charged $80K. On the other hand, parts are pricey and will get more so. We've got some challenges ahead of us.

[phenom_1819]

It's not like the Malibu.

The Malibu has a very rampy, very big wake; the yota has a steeper, more firm wake (but smaller than the Malibu's).  I'd definitely take Derek's suggestion and take some fat sacks and try it out for yourself.  To every man his own certainly fits for boat wakes.

Try it out first. You may like it, or you may not.
-Cal

[phenom_1819]

Derek: I think we submitted our last posts at exactly the same time!  Couldn't have said it better.

One thing to add: the more we hype and show off our boats, the more demand there will be for them down the road. Not sure how to do this yet... but here are a couple ideas:

1) drive to work everyday with your boat trailing behind. This will undoubtedly increase exposure.
2) Post like crazy on wakeworld.com.
3) Use your boats as much as possible, preferably in high-visibility areas.
4) I'm still thinking...

...but together, we can make our boats collector's items.  Mastercraft did it with their Stars and Stripes edition in the 80's, we can do it with the only Japanese (well sorta) ski boats in the American Market.  C'mon, how many people do you know that run around on the water with a Lexus engine?  We friggin' rock.

-Cal

[toyotafreak]

The people I'm looking out for primarily are those like me (and Pete, etc.) that will run these boats until they're dead. Of course that will be in the year 2023, but at that time, we'll have a big party and tell everyone how we bought our boats for cheap, put 15,000 hours on them before pulling the engines out for use in the sand rails. We own them because they do friggin rock, they're unique, and your particular Epic looks bad ass.

I'm taking two Surpa guys out this Friday. They usually ride in the SANs I mentioned. They'll be bummed there's no Perfect Pass, but they'll sure like the seats, space and quiet.

I do care about resale just in terms of keeping the Epic experience positive for everyboday and for those people who decide they must sell either to upgrade or to cut costs.

More than almost anything, I care about keeping the knowledge base and network growing so that when we get hit with obsolescence or other problems, we can learn from eachother and maybe join forces to tackle the toughest problems.

Like how to put a bitchen TRD blower on the engine when I win the lotto....or to retrofit to the two-speed tranny or the 5.5L Tundra engine (after Lexus soups it up with VVT, etc.)

[blindside]

I really wish i could board behing the boat but I severly injured my foot/ankle/leg the day after christmas at winterpark colorado and am still on crutches and won't even be able to board till probably August.  

I will be able to start wakeskating in May though.  In the meantime my wife will be trying to catch up on me   behind which ever boat we decide to go with.  

One of the big factors for us looking at the Yota is the gas usage.  It makes me sick when everyone with thier MC,Malibu,Mooma,Supra have to spend $40-80 bucks at the pump for just one day of riding.  I also like the fact that the engine runs so much quieter and smoother than the 350's.

Question...Is the boat free of any wood?  Is it constructed entirely of fiberglass including the floor and side panels?

And what would you pay for an X22 with 135 hours,tower,tower speakers,heater,cruise control, rear balast, and in very nice condition?
We are planning on keeping it till it falls apart which is hopefully many many years down the road.

[phenom_1819]

If you're anything like me, you'll be happy with the boat regardless of whether you like the wake or not. I love it-- it's exactly what I hoped I was getting, but bought the boat without riding behind it (or seeing it in person, for that matter...).

Anyways, the boat is wood-free (other than the swimstep on mine). The hull is very thick, high-quality fiberglass, stringers are aluminum, even the floorboards are aluminum.  All good, because aluminum doesn't rust!  The aluminum floor does take getting used to, it flexes a little bit when you step in certain spots (over the running gear, on the battery compartment).

Bottom line: it's a top-quality boat at a low-end price...and the engines are efficient and run forever. PJ Mark's wakeboard camp still uses two of these boats with well over 2000 hours (more on this somewhere on this forum).

Pricewise: I bought my 2001 with 185 hours (pricewise, should be very similar to the one you're looking at) for right around $25k, and I felt like I got a good deal.  Not a super-great deal, but a good deal. Though it really just depends on how bad the dealer wants to get it off the lot for. I've seen them go for as much as $30k, and people are stoked, or as little as about $20k, and people are really stoked.

[toyotafreak]

Gas mileage is very good for a towboat, but it's partially offset by the fact that you must use super. Last October at Lake Buenavista, our buddy's boat broke and we spent the whole weekend on mine. They're both Malibu dudes, one had a Sunsetter, the other currently has the tiny slalom DD with the Monsoon 320. Both of them totally tripped on how slowly the needle was dropping. I tried to remind them the tank is like 47 gallons, but in the end, we did a ton of riding for like 20 gallons.

I know for a fact that weighting the boats down even moderately blows the fuel economy down, but am not sure how we compare to a similarly-weighted brand-X boat. I would think the advantage narrows as weight increases. Might even go the other way since we've got to keep the hammer down longer. Both Petes and davidgree could speak to this better.

Maybe you've got a buddy you could take on the test drive that knows your wake tastes?

The only wood on my boat is the teak swim step and the backing plates I added when remounting the tower. There are still places that can rust, but you'll see no wood rot.

I paid $27K for mine @ ~140 hrs, and the tower was the only option. I'd do it again just because it was like-new. I'd pay that same figure again if I found one in mint condition and was still looking for a twenty-year boat. Subject to those constraints, I'd much rather do that then buy a new $60K MC or a $40K Centurion.

As Cal would suggest though, it'd be better for us all if you took one for the team and paid $47K. Just kidding.

Don't pay over $25K unless it's in amazing shape or you for some reason MUST have a Toyota and can't take the risk of another not showing up for a while.

[phenom_1819]

Derek- I haven't decided whether I should be offended or not! j/k.

I agree. If it's the one on boattrader.com (which we still don't know), that boat has been on the market since at least October.  You should be able to get them down into the low 20's no problem.

I guess my point was: quality-wise, I'd pay at least $30k for my boat...but wouldn't in real life because you can get them for a lot cheaper.  Believe it or not, in Seattle...that's what my boat would go for!!!  

I looked at two up here, one in shitty condition (the red from Seattle on boattrader.com) and they wouldn't go lower than $30k, and the blue one on boattrader.com, which they wouldn't go less than $33.5k (believe it or not?!?!), and the condition is identical to the one I picked up in Cali for $25k.  In Seattle, the Epics are VERY popular, apparently...

I'm blabbering.   And I'm sorry.

[blindside]

Thanks for all the input guys and hey, if your ever in the dfw area on busniness or pleasure just post up that your coming and i'd be glad to give ya a pull/hangout/whatever and do some boarding with ya (or skating if the ankle isn't fully healed yet).

Man it's takin for ever for this weekend to get here.

[Epicrider]

I talked to Travis Moye about the boats when I was at their camp.(this is after he went to mastercraft)I asked what he thought of the Toyotas.He told me about all of the testing he put the boats through.He put these boats through hell and back.Toyota also provided him with a M/C,San and someother.
 The hull split on the m/c after 15 minutes or so.Toyota made him stop because they didn't want to pay fines for water contamination when the boat sank.The SAN was damaged fairly well from what I can remember.THE TOYOTA HOWEVER,held up!All that broke on the toyota was the windshield and the teak platform!
  The only problem he had with the boat was self induced.He had to replace the impeller after beaching the boat,then had the occasional fouled plug.