Quest for accurate gauges

[cyclone]

Since this came up, I figure I'll chime in with what I've found in my quest for having accurate and precise and reliable gauges for my boat.

Borg Warner (Kysor Medallion) gauges suck. They are notorious for having erroneous, erattic readings. There must be some reason boat builders use them, they have been OEM in Toyota, Malibu, Supra, MC and others. Maybe it's simplicity, who knows. I don't think Nautiques use them, so that might be a cost thing. I know my buddies old Ski Brendella with it's off the shelf auto engine gauges and Air Guide speedos works perfectly all day long, and has since '91.  It may cost more to wire individual gauges, and the KM package probably is very simple to install and debug.

I found their home page the other day, very little info there but there is contact info
<url>http://www.bwinstruments.com/Marine%20Product%20Group%20Menu.htm</url>

I have been spending time at the Malibu Boat owners website and forum, you should see the number of posts about gauge problems. Oil pressure, temp, gas and alternator. The fixes mentioned are two:

Clean/check all connectors. On our boats, this means to go under your dash and push together all of those big white multiconductor connectors. The big one coming up the back contains the 12vdc +/- to the gauges, dash, radio, and 12vdc is fed back to the computer in the stern.

I found that several of mine were a bit loose from me and others working under the dash. I have never pulled them apart for any reason, but they can work loose if you are sticking your big fat arm up to put the PP gauge in  
After I reseated all I could find under there, my alt gauge reads steady and at 12.4 at idle. It still drops gradually as I accelerate to 4k+, but I think that is a function of the second problem mentioned on the Maliboo page.

Supply wires from battery to gauge feed are too small. These 10 gauge wires are in the big back harness, they come off the Perko (red) and Battery (black) There is a 20 amp fuse inline on the red near the Perko, DEFINITELY know where it is and how to check it for corrosion. I'm going to replace these wires with 8 gauge and see how things work.

[toyotafreak]

Pete, I picked up 35 feet of like 8 from the clearance table at THE Home Depot this week. Intending to run the new line this winter. I get tired of esplaining to wife and others that the alarm is just a nuisance and to not worry about it.

You've got some really good info in this post, Pete.

[cyclone]

If I were starting from scratch, you must absolutely havePP. Use it's tach input to drive an analog tach, and it's speedo output to drive an analog speedo. Some interface would be required. Then, use off the shelf engine gauges for oil/bat/temp/fuel

[cyclone]

You'd save money in the long run, so many service issues with KM gauges. ARE YOU READING THIS CHRIS A?

Don't reinvent the wheel. OEM the PP system, build a simple interface or get someone like me to design and proto it, use high quality analogue boat gauges. Or buy the KM stuff and plug it together and pay on the other end.

As for engines, if Ford still sells the 351 with cast iron GT40 heads and MPI, that would be my pushrod motor. Huge diameter crank(mass+motion=torque), superior oil system, and now decent heads. Torque and efficiency. I would be fine with a holley carb on this motor. Fuel injection just makes it better, Ford fuel injection kicks the living crap out of everything GM every thought about. Note how the IUZFE fuel injection manifold looks a lot like a 5.0 Mustang

The problem once you start  using aluminum is that water eats it alive. Are there any boat manufacturers that do not use a closed loop cooling system on aluminum engines? I know that was a big concern at MC when they were looking at things during the time that Toyota was introducing aluminum block open loop cooling system ski boats. I know they launched a line of saltwater ski boats, they are fer sher closed loop cooling, probably aluminum,

BAD THING IS

Overheat an aluminum engine once, and it's TOAST.

Change your impeller

Why don't Toyota boats corrode to death. They don't.  Better alloys?

[toyotafreak]

Sorry Pete, you're not allowed to get involved with other boats. Epics own you for a while, so get off the "I'm gonna singlehandedly make Chris A.'s business a succes" trip. Get back to your tube and to thinking about other stuff like an auto-ballast controller and valves.

Just kidding (sort of).

[cyclone]

You should know that I am 42.5 years old and have been wakeboarding, meaning flying from wake to wake with about 2k in a 22 ft boat (OK heelside only) about 150 hours this year.  I busted my ass hard today and got up and rode again. TWICE. HAH. For Johnnie, my buddy going through surgery recovery right now.

SO I am just fired up because I am figuring out every aspect of this silly boat shit. Bsides makin hulls, the rest is easy if you don't cut corners too hard. Derek, You shut up and I'll shut up and we'll start a  boat company.  

[Chris A]

Hmmm, so you're sayN I should use BW gauges  

That?s funny that you found that link, I have searched for hours, called at least 10 people on it, and been through every catalog I can find with NO success.  That?s why it helps to have a different perspective sometimes.  

Anyhow, I got these gauges several months ago and figured I would give them a go.  Calabria uses them with the PP, and I thought they look pretty nice together.  My dash is designed for 5" gauges with built in PP and a Sony remote.  I assume that companies use these because they are simple to install and slightly cheaper than Faria, which is really the only other gauge option in these boats.  I have talked to Faria some 15 times but I guess my initial 10 gauge packages order just isn't enough to get them excited.  I had one rep quit the company while working with me, a trade show rep simply ignore my call backs and the manager of development drop the ball 3 times on getting me info.  I have really just given up on them all together.  I REALLY just want all of my gauges match, look stylish on a carbon fiber back drop, and fit with PP, well and reliably work.  Anyways, I'm not committed to these gauges, and now that I have some contact info on Medallion I will give them a call and give you guys the scoop.  And I got a hold of the PP president(a nice guy) and the can match almost all popular 5" gauges for a DAM good OEM price.   Anyways, I need to get this decision behind me as we should be rigging in about 2 weeks.  

And Derek, leave Pete alone, you are both more than welcome to head out to San Diego for some R and D slash R and R

[cyclone]

I just meant that the BW gauges are simple to install but are notoriously unreliable. If I were doing it from scratch I would go a different way. It is probably cheapest to go with BW, mostly in installation/wiring/debugging. You will pay a price with service problems for going this route.

That's why I suggest using PP as heart of the system, you can get the dual gauge with the tach and PP buttons, then you need a matching speedo and interface that will work with the PP 4ppr tach input. The other gauges could be standalone or somebody's multigauge, with simple wiring straight to the gauge, instead of from the engine to the dash to the trunk to the dash as in our Toyotas and lots of modern boats.

[sailtl]

On a different note. My gages just all die like somebody turned off the switch. I found that if the navigation lights are on the problem goes away. Any suggestions?

[cyclone]

Try pushing the big white harness connectors together that are up under your dash. That may help.

[starks951]

Hrmm alll this gauge talk reminds me that the plastic covers on my gauges are cracked all to heck... (too long in Utah sorry)... anyone know where to get replacement covers for them...

-Kyle

[cyclone]

I think you have to replace the entire gauge. A couple of mine were replaced under warrantee

[sailtl]

I  cleaned the fuse holder by the master disconnect switch and took all the plugs apart and put them back together. Everything is fine for about a hour then the gauges just all die like you turned off the switch. Turn on the navigation lights and they start working again. Turn off the navigation lights and about 3 minutes later they all die again. Not all at once but in random or all at once. Any clues?
On a different note I live in Ohio and would be interested in getting together with other owners next year.

[cyclone]

That's just plain wierd. If it changes state when you turn your nav lights on, it may be the DECC or digital switchbox. The 12vdc supply to the MMDC computer (gauges)  from the dash supply fuse wire that you cleaned goes through this box. All the dash switches go through this box.

Here is a link to the troubleshooting guide on the How To page, it may need to be replaced.

http://www.epicmarine.com/docs/Digital%20Switchbox.pdf

Capt. Rick, any suggestions?

[sailtl]

Where is the DECC located on a 1999 Epic 21 and the digital switchbox? What do they look like?