V-drive ballast (starting from scratch)

[toyotafreak]

When I get my tower back on.....

You all have provided lots of good info as far as setting up the Epics for wakeboarding.

Looking for feedback to the following (I've got the v-drive and no ballast whatsoever):

One 20" x 50" Fat Sac (575 lbs. full) in the trunk (aft of the engine).

One 9" x 14" x 62" Tube Sac (375 lbs. full) as far forward into the bow area floor as possible.

1) although not awesome, the wake will see a big improvement, right?

2) should still handle OK?

3) are the cigarrette lighter pumps OK or should I at least hard-wire one to the aft sac?


Thanks for the help!

[davidgree1]

I have a sx which has the internal hard sacs.  I took the overflow from these and ran them to side sacs under the front two seats=225# each.  I have overflow from the port side sac to a vdrive sac in the locker under the port windshield=350#  The wake is pretty big and the boat handles fine but the mileage goes way down.
\

[toyotafreak]

Tell me a little about the internal hard sacks if you've got some time...

[atlantabuff]

Just to give you an idea about how much the boat can handle.  The guys at the wakeboard camp when they had the X22 used to "4 bag it"  They put 4-500lb fat sacs in and then 4-6 people got in.  Since we don't have an SX I can't speak to it, but you can look at my earlier posts and see what we do.  We use the lighters to fill our fat sacs all the time.

[toyotafreak]

Thanks!

[davidgree1]

I have a 2001 SX.  It has internal hard sacs.  They are next to the gas tank which on my boat is in the center.  They fill with a 1100 gph pump mounted next to the bildge pup in the center and below water line so it self primes.  It overflows out the sides of the boat.  The tanks are 40 gal=350# each.  I took the overflow tube and sent it to the front side sacs under the two bow cushions then sent the overfill on the port side to an additional sac under the storage compartment under the windshield.  That then exhausts where the original did.  i.e. I didn't cut any holes or add any pumps.  It is a little slow but otherwise works well.

[cyclone]

I would recommend Rule 1100 pumps highly, best I've found. Toyota is using them as replacements for all of their systems. There are three thru hull fittings on some Epics, one for the engine inlet, one to drain the oil near the front of the engine (d drive) and one up in front of the battery box for the ballast system I used the one in front of the engine for my water supply, it had a plug in there. See the pics or reference my numerous posts on this site and on Wakeworld in the archives for boat and boat accessories. I was pretty vocal until I posted this site.

[toyotafreak]

OK, still confused on this issue (no great surprise, huh?)

I understand that ballast in the front of the boat will help it plane easier and handle better. I guess what I'm unsure of is how fore/aft balance affects wake size and shape. Also, I wonder about diminishing returns; Wakeboard Camp uses 2K lbs, but Cyclone's got a nice wake with just the Fat Seat (1200 lbs).

As it's evolved, I'm looking more towards the following:

In trunk: Fluid Concepts 1000 lb (19"x80") - Will fill the lower portion of the trunk nicely from wall to wall and still leave room for ropes, jackets and maybe a board.

Under bow seats: two Lets Go Ride Stiffy 250 lb (13"x52") or Fly High Side Sacks 250 lb (12"x48") - would love to be able to squeez these higher up in the gunwhale so I can keep the anchor, lines and bumpers under the seats, but doubt it's gonna be possible.

Could also add removable hookups for a Tube Sack (350 lb) or lounge (540 lb) in walkway for the days where it's just the guys.

Junk in trunk and side sacks in front will give 1500 lbs, sort of evenly distributed. Don't forget the S22's got the mondo 47 gallon (300 lb) tank mounted midships (starts full every day).

Biggest concerns are:
1) too much weight at the far aft end of the boat for wake shape?
2) too much weight in bow for wake shape?
3) enough weight in bow for boat control?

Would the extra 350 lb tube sack or 540 lb lounge up front/midships help or hurt the wake situation? (1800 or 2000, respectively).

Remember, this is the v-drive...

[toyotafreak]

OK... After further review of the wife's current aversion to boat spending...

The 1000 lb sac in the trunk, the 350 lb tube sac in the walkway and a pair of cigarette lighter pumps.


As long as I get bags with all the holes required for a semi-auto system, the only wasted cash will be on the pumps.

And maybe by the time I'm ready to do it right, someone will be offering good reversible pumps that'll move 1000 GPH and sell for $100 a piece (one for the forward bags and one for the aft one.)

Yes Pete, the Rule 1100's look good. It'd be a toss up whether to do four of them to keep fore/aft control or two Rule 2000's for simplicity.

Maybe after she sees all the sick tricks we bust with them rock hard wakes she'll agree we need the ballast. THEN, maybe after she spends a year filling the bags by hand, she might be up for investing in real pumps.


Blessings from you guys?

[toyotafreak]

Yesterday some guys went out with us and brought their own sacks.

We had a full 600 lb in the trunk, a 250 lb v-drive sack on the floor up against the back seat/tranny cover, and another v-drive sack in the walkway. Six adults and my boy. This was my first experience with a ballasted boat.

Amazing how long it takes to get up on plane, and how easy it is to lose plane during a turn. Haven't filled the tank, so I've not seen the gas mileage grief yet.
As for riding, it was also the first time on a non-stretch rope and first time at ~70 feet (usually run 15-off). The water was truly horrible (more boats than you lucky rural guys have ever seen ;-) Except for the 50-ollie-per-minute chop, I loved it.

The distance you've got to fly seemed way farther, but I was able to get over clean a few times, and even busted the 180 almost across. When you want height, it's only a pop away. After seeing what the wake CAN be, not sure if I can deal with the unweighted version...


Pete: the guys filled the sacks with your Rule 1100. I was amazed how much that sucker pumped, and they've been happy with the Rule for a long time.

[cyclone]

Weight seems to have the most efffect in the back, but people or a sack in the walk thru stiffens it up a lot. I will say that my wake is as big as any boat (wakeboard) boat I've seen besides the new X star and that ugly ass Regal Session. No sheot, BIG wake. Ugly boat. Both of them. The Xstar can't get on plane with the stock motor, weight and people. The Regal is just ugly. I mean, keep the cover on it ugly, or it creeps people out.
I have seen bigger wakes on a Malibu with weight, wedge and 10 people, but as for the basic MBU, MC or Nautique, the difference is the shape. Toyota, Malibu and MC are more rampy, Nautiques are extremely peaky. Supras are in between and are an excellent value. I want to go across, not straight up, as my knees are 41.5 yrs old. I like rampy myself. Malibus look like they were designed by a Hollywood pimp or Pro wrestler, I love MC's but they suck gas compared to my beloved Toyota. I'm cheap too. Plus, everybody's got a MC. So, I'm Toyota for life

[toyotafreak]

Brandon's first board should show up today, so we've got some fun for the weekend.

Was looking again at bags, and it's all a big compromise. The trunk is great for storing boards since we've only got one board rack, but we also put food, tools, extra ice chest, etc. under the engine hatch. V-drive sacks will leave the locker empty, but then that stuff's gotta be relocated, there'd be two bags to fill, and they'll only hold 800 lbs. If we fill up the trunk with the big 1000 lb bag, we lose probably ALL the trunk (huge bag), but the space under the engine hatch remains undisturbed.

As for weight in the front, using the side sacs or other narrow ones under the seats would help keep stuff off the floor, but we store anchor, lines, fenders under there, and even if we could get the bags 100% full, there still might not be enough weight up there to balance the grand in the trunk.

It'd be a lot easier if we just put a regular old fat sac (600 lb) in the walkway as far forward as possible, but then we lose the cubby.

And if we can make peace with losing the cubby for the simplicity of a single forward sack, then maybe the bump 750 lb or a second 1000 bag would be in order. At least with those huge ones you get both the observer's seat extension and the bow filler cushion for one low, rock-bottom price ;-)

It'll probably be some time before Brandon's ready for the ballast, so I probably better control myself here.

Back to work ;-(

[toyotafreak]

Final revision?

Used a friend's Fat Buddies this weekend, and although they were only ~250 each, it was good to get the additional info. Sunday we had one in the walkway and one in the trunk. Wake was firm and bigger than stock, the bow rise was under control and it was relatively easy to hold 18 for Brandon. Could only get one board in the trunk, and the v-drive lockers went unused as usual. Monday I moved them both to the v-drive lockers and the convenience was mucho better. Two boards in the trunk, never had to open the hatch, very nice. Wake was taller but softer. I fell so many times Monday, and the wake just never felt right. I've been behind tall and firm and didn't have as much problems as when tall and soft. Bow rise was a little worse and it was a little harder to hold the lower speeds.

For now, the plan is two Fluid Concepts v-drive bags in the v-drive lockers and a covered GetHighSports Big Bump in the walkway. The advertised info for the FC v-drives is 19"x36" and 400 lbs each. 19"x36" calculates to 366 pounds, so I used the calculated number to be conservative. The covered Big Bump is listed as 18"x66" and 700 lbs. I used the calculated number of 603 lbs.

I'm going to use two Rule 1100's for the rear sacks, with the sacks being connected in series, one pump for intake, one for exhaust, hooked up pretty much identical to Pete's setup. As for the Bump, we'll fill and empty that manually with another Rule 1100.

Making a guestimate of the boat's center of gravity, I computed weight and balance and this setup should add 1340 pounds to the boat and move the CG forward three inches. The rear bags should fill in 5 1/2 minutes, and the front should fill in 4 1/2 minutes. The covered Bump is $109 + s/h, and I believe the FC bags are $139 each.

One growth option would be to overfill the Bump and add a Tube Sac (or comparable) into the trunk. This would bring the ballast up to ~1800 and leave the CG just 1/2" aft of the un-ballasted point.

I'd be happy to email the spreadsheet; it's got most of the bags available drawn to scale with pictures of the SX to drag them on to. Also calculators for weight/balance, fill rates, volume calculators, etc.

[toyotafreak]

Two graphics to follow. The FC sacks have an 'air bleed' line of small diameter (I'm thinking 1/4" o.d., but not sure). If the bags fill unevenly, it seems like the small bleeder would present enough resistance in the full bag that it would force the extra pressure back to the supply tee, and then the incoming water would find less resistance on the side with the emptier sack. Once they were both full, the full power of the Rule would be felt at the two bleed ports and water would really start to move through the flappers and out the thru-hull.

Flappers are there for the emptying process. Should one side empty before the other, I'm afraid that without the valve, air would be sucked in and kill the pump's prime, leaving water in the other bag. With the flapper, the exhaust Rule will just pump all the harder on the less empty side until they're both down.

Pete, you said the fill Rule doesn't allow water to pass through it and drain out. The ball valve in there is just for emergency (like the pump fails and there's good water out here :-) Gonna try to put unions on that one for easier R&R.

[toyotafreak]

Second drawing includes a crossover tube to ensure that during fill, water coming into the full bag has no choice but to go (over the top) into the emptier bag.

Is this a better choice?


I want to make some 'beds' if you will, for the bags to sit on. Cradles might be a better word. Nothing fancy, maybe just some good dense foam or something. The hope is that they'll ensure the bags get really empty when draining and with the right cutouts in them, the fittings won't be going up and down every cycle - they stay stationary as does all the associated plumbing (except for the light bleed tube).

You like, or am I trippin? Gotta do it nice (not perfect) the first time, cuz it's a Toyota (which my buddy called a Caddy this weekend before I slapped him and said "don't diss the boat by calling it that - call it Lexus if you're nasty".)