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May 04, 2025, 17:47:49 pm

Author Topic: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me  (Read 1563 times)

slalom21

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Hey Everybody,

It's been a little while but I'm getting ready to ski.  Anyways came across some nasty comments from my brothers at a Master Craft sight on 21's locking in a turn and Toyota recalled them and some other comments to that effect.  I've had a 21 since 99 and love it and ski it hard in the course with my Master Craft brothers here in Tennessee.  So does anyone know what the story is behind these comments or are they simply loud noises and high vibrations of screws coming loose from not running a Lexus motor in your ski boat?

Thanks,

Bill

festivus

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2005, 21:35:32 pm »
If you check out the link to "Epic History" that our web-page admin buddies have posted, it sort of touches on the subject.  It is right over there <---- <----- on the upper left hand corner.
I haven't heard of it actually happening either, just the info on the link.
As for MC, I don't know what changes they have recently, but I boat regularly with a friend who has a Maristar, and he has had more superficial problems than I can count.  Every time we go to Lake Powell with them they have an issue.  Not always crippling, but I feel great when I get help tow them back to the marina in my S22.
Also, at the boat show, the prices on the MC"s are shizzly-nuts!  I guess if you have 80large to drop on a boarding boat, then you have a personal mechanic to apply the bandaids when they are needed.  I know my Epic won't last forever, but replacing it with most of what is out there will be a step in the wrong direction.
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phenom_1819

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2005, 21:49:45 pm »
Right on Festivus.  I feel the same way -- I don't think I've had one superficial problem with my boat either.  Blows me away.  Or any problems that new plugs wouldn't fix, for that matter.  I don't think any of my boat-owning friends can say that..

There are many others that can speak to the chine lock more than I can, but I think Festivus got the basics of it. Basically there was a mold they were using that had a very slight twist in it, too small to see but big enough to cause the hull to chine lock.  Toyota fixed the problem by replacing all the boats that were bad.  I believe it was only a small fraction of all the E21's that had the problem... and I doubt there are many (if any) still on the water with the defect.

But regardless, all boats chine lock from time to time.  My X22 does it every once in a while when the weight isn't just right.  But so would an X-Star or a SAN.   It's the nature of flat-bottom boats.
Cal
Yakima, WA
Previous owner of 2001 Toyota Epic X22

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2005, 21:57:28 pm »
BUT... I think your second assumption is correct too.  It's funny the different reasons people throw out there about why they think Toyota stopped making boats.  The chine lock and an inadequate engine (believe it or not) are the two that people throw out there most often.  People never mention that Toyota stepped up and replaced all the hulls (which I doubt all mfgs would have done), or that the engine is the most advanced engine in a towboat to date.  And the torque issue is bullshit.  And now, the lack of PerfectPass is bullshit too.

Bottom line, they probably are just looking for another reason to feel good about paying too much money for their Mastercrafts.  And I could be wrong, but I think I remember that when the E21 first came out, it actually got a better review for tournament waterskiing than the MC PS190.  The running surface on the Epics is longer, which I think makes a flatter wake.  But I don't know.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2005, 22:00:27 pm by VillageIdiot »
Cal
Yakima, WA
Previous owner of 2001 Toyota Epic X22

toyotafreak

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2005, 23:33:00 pm »
Pete, get your fingers off the trigger....breathe....


Cal, you seem to have been in/on/around/behind many different towboats, so you're in a much better place to make a chine lock judgement than me. I don't even really know what it is. Get it in a turn and then you try to turn out of it but you can't, right?

I did see a TSB while at the dealership that illustrated how to remove a  chine/strake near the keel to help with a 'reported chine lock issue'. Looked messy.

Cal, you need to get your a$$ down here and drive mine. It gets ugly sometimes when I'm at high speed (over 35). It's like the prop or rudder leading edge is causing flow separation and the rudder actually rides in a bubble - the effect is what feels like a large amount of play. It's aggravated by rollers. Sounds lame, I know.
Derek Boyer
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phenom_1819

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2005, 00:52:57 am »
Derek, you running a lot of bow weight? Have you hit anything with your prop? Try running WOT with the ballast full and see what happens. I have no idea what could make it do that, though. Any vibration or anything else at high speeds? 

I might have a few days off at the end of this month, and I'm still trying to figure out what to do with my time.  Motley Crue is playing in Spokane, so you've got that to compete with. ;)

About chine lock:
Chine lock is just when weight gets off-centered enough that the boat gets confused about where the center is, and starts riding on the outside edge of the hull.  At least with the Toyotas, I'd imagine the problem is almost non-existent with the v-drives because there is less width to the running surface further forward than the d-drives (d-drive hulls gets wider, quicker).  Without ballast, d-drives end up riding on that wider spot more of the time, too, since the engine  (and weight) is further forward. 

When the weight gets off center, you will be driving along and the weight will feel like it suddenly shifts to the extreme in one direction or the other.  The boat will keep going pretty much straight, but will become much less responsive to steering.  I kick the wheel hard in the opposite direction and it will break it free, move a couple passengers, and you're good to go.  It's really no big deal.

Most d-drives I've been in do it -- it's just part of driving a tournament towboat.  Been in a few v-drives that do it too. 

That being said, (opening a door here) I do think ours chine-lock worse than most.  But I've been in boats that do it worse, too.  So I don't think it's anything we should be concerned about.

Pete- ditto.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 00:57:57 am by VillageIdiot »
Cal
Yakima, WA
Previous owner of 2001 Toyota Epic X22

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2005, 01:26:42 am »
I have not had any issues with my v-drive. I had heard that from my salesguy, believe it or not about the 21, along with the story of some epics rolling over in turns. But, I did not know exactly what chine lock was...thanks for that explanation Village.

It does remind me of a question, though. What maintenance do yu ohave to do on the steering cable. Toward the end of last year, I started noticing that my steering wheel is getting harder to turn, expecially toward the extremeties. Do i grease it somewhere?

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2005, 03:24:11 am »
I asked my dealer about the recall for the chine lock.He checked into it,and did find out that there was one and that my boat was complied with.He told me that chine lock is more common in D-drives & he has seen it several times...keep in mind,this is a Natique dealer!
 His comments were made more toward how the boat was weighted,rough water etc.However, it happened to me in calm water.Kind of scary. :o
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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2005, 23:27:12 pm »
Epicrider, you think it would be possible to get a copy of the recall from your dealer? It would be interesting to know which hulls/HINs the recall affected, and how many boats were built before they figured out the problem.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2005, 23:31:49 pm by VillageIdiot »
Cal
Yakima, WA
Previous owner of 2001 Toyota Epic X22

Epicrider

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #9 on: March 05, 2005, 04:23:16 am »
Give me a few days to contact him.I'll see if he can give me some useful info.I'll let you know as soon as I hear something.The dealer is MD Boats in Indianapolis,IN. 317-257-7358.Mark Q. is the owner...good guy.
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slalom21

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2005, 21:24:33 pm »
Hey Everybody,

Thanks for the information, and I would be very interested in finding out what the dealer said, and may call my Toyota dealership that sold me the boat.  Toyota is a solid company and should stand behind any problems if there are any, especially if all of us bring it to there attention.  Anyways I have had in happen a couple of times, but I do believe I had it happen in MC's as well.

A couple of simple suggestions:

Ski in calmer water...and power up in the turn (just after you start the turn, gently push the throttle...but keep it pushed, don't be shy about it and don't skip your skier acrossed the water either) as you do this the back end will bite in and keep the boat flat.  Remember to ease off the throttle out of the turn or your skier is going to be breaking the sound barrier going back into the course.

Keep the passengers' weight evenly balanced in the boat preferable up front. (better wake and keeps the bow on the water)  From what I remember everytime it happened the bow came up, and I had a recreational skier who wanted a nice slow wide turn and I had a lot of people in the boat unbalanced.

Hey any you all every around Nashville, look me up and we'll hit the course.

Thanks,

Bill

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2005, 03:05:33 am »
I talked to my dealer today,& he said the compliance with the recall had to do with checking the back edge of the boat.He also said that pretty much most of the older Epics have been complied with.He stated that Rick Cohn would be the one to actually contact to see if your boat has been complied with.I'm assuming that's who goes by the username "Capt. Rick".
  I hope that if it is,He could chime in here & throw us a bone.Mark(of MD Boats) said that he has drivin a couple 'Yotas that actually chine locked on him through a turn.His impression is that we really have to be careful on how we weight our boats.
  I know this isn't a great amount of info,but I hope it helps.
                Todd
 
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cyclone

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Re: What's this about 21's locking in a turn...sounds like BS to me
« Reply #12 on: March 08, 2005, 13:20:30 pm »
The story I was told by my dealer was that the mold for the Epic 21 was left out in the sun one day and developed a twist. Boats made from this mold had a severe chine lock problem. When the problem was discovered (supposedly by my dealer) after a boat flipped (supposedly by one of the salesman that still works there) Toyota decided at some point to recall and destroy the affected boats. From those I've talked to in the industry, having a slight hull twist is not that unusual, it happens from time to time.
 Stepping up the plate and recalling and replacing all the boats definitely is unusual.

I have noticed minor chine lock issues when heavily loaded (2k and people) and nothing was necessary to get out of it but slowing down slightly and/or turning the wheel a bit.  I would say that our boats drive better weighted than a lot of them, Travis Moye told me the same thing, he drives the Pro Tour and used to work for Toyota.

I don't care how bad the chine lock problem is, you are definitely Lambing up if you are able to flip a boat. Not Toyotas fault. 
Pete

'01 Epic SX