Amount of Ballast YOU use in your Epic

[mvermeer]

Although boating season is ending and winter is coming, I am starting to get my X22 prepared for next summer already.  The main reason is because weight enhancement products are on sale right now.  I am looking to get a tournament size wake to start working on the advancement of my wakeboarding skills, but am not sure how much weight to add to get that wake.  The original owner of my boat told me he had the stock 500lbs sac in the trunk, plus 400lbs of lead in front of the back seat, a 250lbs side sac on each side of the motor, and a 500lbs sac in the front.  He said it was a perfect wake for wakeboarding.  I making most of the purchasing decisions based on his setup, but was curious what you all had for input on the matter.  Right now I am looking at getting two fly high side sacs and a fly high fat sac and eventually getting some lead or sand bags for the back.  Please let me know what extra information might help me out to make this a tournament wake.  Thanks for all your input.

[phenom_1819]

This really depends on what you're looking for. First, I want to say that a bigger wake won't help your skills. I don't know your skill level, but as far as progressing, I wouldn't worry about having a tournament wake....until you get going on inverts, it will only slow your development having a big wake -- becuase you'll focus on one thing: going big.  Learning new tricks, inverts included, the stock ballast should be all you'll ever need.

That being said, I like to run more weight.  I prefer to run at about 2000-2500 lbs (ballast and passengers). My setup is: stock ballast (700 lbs), and two side sacks (440 lbs each),  and anywhere between 3-9 people.  I've only used my side sacks like 3 times this year -- I usually have the boat completely loaded -- 9 people or so, which, with the stock ballast, throws a huge wake.
I'd start with a set of side sacks and build from there.  I wouldn't imagine you'd need much more than that.  

[mvermeer]

Thanks for the info.  I would say that I am an intermediate rider, looking to advance myself.  I usually ride with just my wife, so the stock ballast is not enough.  I have gone with the 500 factory ballast full with about 7 seven people in the boat and the wake was really nice.  But when my wife is alone in the boat pulling me, the wake is slim to nun comparatively.  I think that I will get the two side sacs and a fat sac to give me a total of 1600lbs of ballast.  If I do have passengers, I will just narrow down the tanks that I fill.  Thanks again.

[toyotafreak]

I'd listen to Cal, but also....you're wasting a ton of space/potential ballast in the trunk. My 700 to 750 Big Bump still leaves almost a foot on each side and almost a foot above it. My Bump was like $79 last year around Christmas. Don't need a cover, either. I use a second in the walkway, but the v-drives need the bow weight. It's a real nice fit, though.

At just over 3000 total (ballast & passengers), the wake is a beautiful thing. Haven't been behind any other boats fully weighted, but mine was real fun. Clean, hard, with a stiff peak.

If you're really intent on getting big, you're gonna want to get an ACME 3-blade down-pitched like 3" from stock. At 22 and the above weight, my RPMs were running like 3600 to 3700, while yesterday with just under 2000 total, the same speed was 3300 RPM. The engine is much happier when closer to 4K and it'd help with planing; hurt with mileage, though. At 2000 total, the wake is perfect, but not as big. Much more pop than stock, and it'll stay clean at full ength and 20 MPH.

[mvermeer]

Based on what I have heard from others, I am assuming they were right when they told me the factory ballast in the trunk was 500lbs.  Is that correct beings you guys probably have dealt with these boats longer than I have?  I was thinking about taking the tank out of the trunk and putting it in the walkway and then getting a 700lber to put in the trunk.  What do you guys think about that?  The only problem I see with that is that there are three fill/empty ports in the factory sac and only two in the 700lber I am looking at.  Therefore, I am not sure that I could make the 700lber factory.  Let me know any other insight and thanks for the replies.

[phenom_1819]

Actually, the stock bag in the tank (at least on the x22's) is a 80 gallon, 700 pound bag.  There is room if you wanted to upgrade it, but I wouldn't put anything more back there, because whatever you add to the trunk, you have to add to the bow.

Those experienced with weighting our boats recommend a 50-60% in the rear, 40-50% in the bow.  

The DD's weigh is much more centered than the V-drives are, therefore don't need as much bow weight.  You still do need some though.

Here is my recommendation:  Leave the stock ballast, get a couple side sacks, and throw about 100-200 lbs of weight (lead or whatever) in the bow (I usually just make somebody sit up there, but I run with more people than you).

That should do you just fine.

[cyclone]

I concur with Cal. I like a bigger wake because I have to work too hard to get across the stock wake, which is still pretty nice. I throw myself out of shape trying to get enough pop to make it across. It is a technique thing, you all should run out and buy the Byerly documentary, Retrospect. There is a lot of old footage on there from the no high pole, no ballast, stretchy rope, sandal binding directional board days. There is one scene where they show Byerly's whole run that won him some big championship back in the early 90's, he was pulling absolutely crazy tantrums and other inverted crap that I don't know the name of, off a wake that is maybe 6 inches. If you see it, you will stop worrying so much about weight and start working on technique. Not that I have any, so I use the crutch of lots of weight to get my 42 yr old fat ass across the wake!

[toyotafreak]

Nicely put, and good points!

[mvermeer]

Fellas, here are my options along with the factory ballast in the trunk of my X22 (by the way, I found an old Toyota brochure that said the factory ballast is 580 lbs):

-250lb sacs ($70 shipped) on each side of the motor and a 550 lb sac ($50 shipped) in the bow
-550lb sacs ($90 shipped) on each side of the motor and a 700 lb sac in the bow ($75 shipped)

That would give me anywhere from 1630 lbs to 2380 lbs.  With the options that I have and the prices they will cost me, what setup would you guys go with and why?  Thanks

[phenom_1819]

 I wouldn't do any of the above, to be honest. See my comments above.

Get the Launch Pad side sacks for either side of the engine compartment, they hold 440 lbs each.  Push them as far forward as possible. Throw about 100-200 pounds of sand/lead/whatever for the bow, and call it good.

700 pounds will swamp your bow and flatten your wake.  WAAAY too much weight up front...

Remember also, filling and emptying those things is a PAIN IN THE BUTT.  That's reason #2 that I never use my sacks. The more you have, the more of a pain it will be.

[mvermeer]

I noticed what you had above, but the previous items I listed are ones that I can get a good deal on right now.  So I guess I am asking what combination of the above items would you suggest for me to get to get a similar setup like yours.  Or would you suggest getting sand bags instead of fat sacs?  

[phenom_1819]

If you had to stick to those bags...here's what I'd do.

First choice:  I'd go with one 550 in the bow, and one 550 in place of your back seat, in addition to the stock ballast.  

Second choice:  I'd put the 550's on either side of the engine, and throw lead or sand bags up in the bow (100-200 lbs), in addition to the stock ballast. (though the problem with this is that 550 lb bags are really wide, and I would worry about the strain they would put on the engine box and on the side panels).
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NOTE: the thing I like about the LP side sacks (and reason I think they are ideal) is they are square, so they don't roll, and end up using all the space between the engine and sides, wasting nothing.  You don't have to worry about them damaging the engine box or side panels, as I would with 550 lb bags that are shorter and fatter.
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I'd start small, and build up from there (if you need to).  If you buy all these bags at once,  you may get stuck with bags you'll never use, which will end up being more expensive than just buying the right bags in the first place.

I hope this helps.  

[lesman01]

Tell me where you found the  550lbs sacs for $90. Is that for both? and the 700 lb sac for $75. Plus, since my s22 has no factory ballast, any recommendations on a pump to pump those suckers up?

Also, Cyclone is right about the technique thing. I've read wakeboard mag enough to no that it's all in loading the rope. I've seen enough video of peopole doing crazy stuff off a cable run with no wake to realize that.  But, for a hacker like me it'd be nice to have a bigger wake just to see the diff. It was night vs. day when i added the tower..

Lesman

Fellas, here are my options along with the factory ballast in the trunk of my X22 (by the way, I found an old Toyota brochure that said the factory ballast is 580 lbs):

-250lb sacs ($70 shipped) on each side of the motor and a 550 lb sac ($50 shipped) in the bow
-550lb sacs ($90 shipped) on each side of the motor and a 700 lb sac in the bow ($75 shipped)

That would give me anywhere from 1630 lbs to 2380 lbs.  With the options that I have and the prices they will cost me, what setup would you guys go with and why?  Thanks

[mvermeer]

Cal

Thanks for the information.  I believe that I am going to at least get the 2 Fly High 250lb sacs for around the motor.  I might get the 550 sac for the bow just because I beleive that I will use it because like I said earlier, I usually go with just my wife and I in the boat.

Lesman01

These are all private deals, so I am affraid that you will not have a chance at these items.  SORRY!!

[toyotafreak]

I've been away from this thread for a few days, and in that time, it seems like you've been given some great advice and rejected all of it. However, I've done this two zillion times here too (v-drive ballast, accuski vs. perfect pass, etc., etc.).

Each and every time, Pete or some other dude that knows a lot more about 1) these boats, 2) boating, and 3) boarding than I do throw down with advice that I question or outright reject.

There's something to be said for thinking for yourself, and also about the benefits of learning from others/not reinventing the wheel. I for one am a little hard-headed when it comes to rejecting ideas that make sense to me because someone who knows better rejects it. I'm sure most of the time they're right, but so many times people just rely on assumptions, "everybody knows that boat engines are under way more load than car engines", or fail in the execution, only call the idea bad.

My two cents: try to borrow some sacks from friends or people in the area just to try things out and experiment with different things. It's really kinda foolish (I speak from experience here) to plan a ballast system without having tried a whole bunch of different stuff with some experienced dudes IN THE BOAT to point things out to you. During that recent run of mine, I'd have assumed the hole shot was too slow and would've backed off if it weren't for the guys with me who regularly run pro wakes in other boats. If you insist on buying new bags, get custom rectangulars made to fit.

My two cents.

Lesman, there's only one pump thou shalt use: the official pump of epicmarine.com, the Rule 1100. Sold in many forms, but my for was as the Bump Pump. Use nice big tubing and you'll just be amazed at how much water these rules pump. I'll use them FOR SURE when I do my auto-ballast (that is unless someboday comes out with a reversible vane pump that moves more than 80 pounds a minute while burning 20 amps.)