Trim Tabs?

[extruop]

Has anybody ever put trim tabs on one of these hulls?

I have been surfing behind my X-22 the last few days and having a blast.  I run close to 1000 lbss of ballast in trunk (I put twin 58 gallon sacks back there).  I have another 400+ lbs sack in the walkway and one more just like it next to the engine (I put it on whatever side we are surfing on)(BTW these are Pro-X Tube Sacks).  I also have the fuel and flesh on the boat.  I have been putting most of the folks up in the bow but we have tried just about everywhere on the boat to try to get the best wake.

The wake is pretty damn big.  I only have a couple of complaints.  First, the swim platform is actually screwing up the wake a little.  There is more white water on the apex of the wake than I would expect.  I am guessing that it might be because of the swim platform.  Yes, you read that right, at between 9 and 11 mph the swim platform is still touching the water on the outside edges.

The second problem is the shape of the wake.  I wish it were a bit steeper and bigger.  Again, the platform might be part of the problem, I don't know.

Don't get me wrong, we are riding, and it is a blast.  The problem is that we are 100% focused on pumping the board so we can keep up without the handle.  The wake is so close to being really good I can taste it. 

I doubt more ballast is the answer.  The platform is under the water for He77s sake!

I know that trim tabs will not increase the volume of the wake .  What I am wondering is what the shape might be.  I could put 18 inch wide tabs with a 12 inch cord out to where the hard chine on my hull starts.  This would undoubtedly help deflect the water further from the aft away from the platform.  It might also help move the nose down a bit.  Then again at such slow speeds maybe not much.

So, do I sound nuts?  And what about wakeboarding.  Wouldn't these tabs help tweak the plane speed and shape of the wake at 17-20 mph too?

[toyotafreak]

Hey, I'm not even sure what side we're supposed to be surfing on. One guy set me up on the left side (rider's perspective). I've got a left-hand rotation, so not even sure if that's the correct side or not. It'd be really nice to know how to set it up though!

Trim tabs would be fun in some instances, but unless you had full-span tabs, I think you'd screw up your wake more than help it (would be like adding extra chines under there - not a small thing when it comes to wake shape). Could work, but seems like there's a good chance it could screw up your wake. Lots of holes, extra stuff to rig, and to get one of those cool actuator/indicators you'd be talking some big ducks. I thought of tabs for a while when I realized the S22 was tail-heavy. Instead, I just keep some weight in the bow and call it good.

[snowrider]

Interesting to hear how your setup for surfing is doing. We have been trying to get our E22 dialed in. We had 750lbs or so covering the whole trunk, 400lb behind driver seat and approx 200lbs up front on starboard side. Then people sitting on starboard side on trunk. We were kind of in the same situation, not enough shape or length to the wake to let go of the rope for longer than 10 seconds.
Blindside mentioend that for the direct drives it works best to put 800lbs behind drivers seat then all people in the back corner same side. Did you try using the rear bag only on the side you are surfing?

[extruop]

Yes, been there, done that.  It does increase the volume of the wake.  It also helps to maintain a slight turn.  And yes you can surf.  But the swim platform is partially under the water and I believe it is screwing up the shape and causing some of the whitewater on the top edge of the wake.  More weight more drag.  The best day we had was with 8 adults on the boat.  We were full of fuel. I had 1000 lbs in the trunk, a Fly High Fat Sac on the side by the engine (750+ lbs.),  Fly High Tube Sac in the walk way (450+ lbs.), four guys in the bow on one side, four guys lined up from the tower to rear seat on the side.  All the while dragging the platform through the water on one side.  We sent everybody to the bow and it still drags and makes it harder to surf without the rope, not easier.

I am using a Butterboard.  It is a blast.  But, I am spending most of my focus on staying in front of the wake.  The wake is not large enough to just cruise around making turns.  You halve to pump or your ride without the rope will be brief.  Maybe a different board that was more boyant or slicker would also help.  I don't know.  I just keep coming back to the issue with the platform.  I am not going to remove it.  Surfing is a blast but it is not the reason I own the boat.  I just wonder if a 20 inch wide trim tab would improve the shape and or allow all that weight without dragging the deck.  I also think it might make my wakeboard wake better. 

I must also admit it sounds cool.  But, so does a Wedge or a Switchblade bolted to the back of the boat.  I am not going to do anything without bouncing it of the epic community first.  He77,  I know the real solution is to join Festivus with a 247.  I just cant justify that much jack for a friggin toy. No offence or pun intended.

[extruop]

Freak,

I was hoping you would reply.  I saw some old threads years ago about tabs from you.  I agree it is a big risk.  I also know that I have reached the ballast limit on this hull front back or anywhere else.

There is a little over 20 inches between the factory plate and the hard chine on the outside edge of the boat.  That is where I am thinking about putting the tabs.  I agree the wider the better.  I also agree it is a big risk.  I dont know if trim tabs will do a dang thing at 10 mph no matter how wide they are.  One thing for sure.  I will not put them on there unless I am confident that I could pull them up and get my tabless wake.

BTW- yes, quality tabs, electric actuators, and nice controls are not cheap. 

[epic_toy]

Had to chime in as I've been playing with the surfing pretty hard the last couple months. On the E21, I have 440 in the trunk and 600 all the way back on the port side since we ride regular (that's left foot forward) and toeside to wave. A slow turn and about 11 mph, with only 2 people on the port rail and I can ride all day without the rope. Full tank of gas helps a lot too. Usually have the driver walk to the back too and makes a huge difference. I can turn a little and pump, but if I turn too much or go too high on the wave it falls apart and I lose the wave. Using a 6' Inland surfer but wanting to try something smaller... I have to use my hand as a brake in the whitewater or will run into the back of the boat fast if get in the steep part. don't think the swim step is under water during running, definitely is at stop. I wonder if the 21 hull makes that much of a difference vs. 22s? could it be you have too much weight? Is that possible? 

[toyotafreak]

Should change my handle to All Talk No Action. Just like to err on the side of overthinking when it comes to something as expensive and fragile as a boat. Lord knows if I had all the money in the world I'd have done a dozen different "upgrades" in the past 3.5 years and many of them I'd end up regretting. Can't help but think trim tabs would be one of them regrettable upgrades for us. Your mileage may very, use as directed, etc.

My preference would've been for wide, short ones like in the first pic below. These would give some ride control without affecting wake shape too much (yes, you could ride lifting the ass end to make the wake even smaller than stock without killing the shape of it). It'd just give you another thing to play with and oh, by the way, it'd do it's job of taking care of porpoising and may give some options in choppy water (could be that sticking the nose farther down would help the ride - just don't know).

The second pic was something I was thinking of along the lines of a step hull. In short, you need to extend the transom when running at 10mph, but leave it stock at 20+ mph. I thought that a molded, curvy cup deal might work where it'd mount to the transom and extend up in a nice smooth radius up to near the edges of the swim step. At high speed, the water would release from and be clear of it, but at surf speeds the water would stay attached to the clean surface longer - maybe even to the edge of it where it meets the edge of the swim step. There are so many things wrong with that idea, but here's a couple to start with - exhaust has to flow through it somehow & there'd be a ton of pressure on it because it'd be forcing the tail to ride higher in the water. This last one means you'd have to make it pretty strong and that it'd be working against your ballast. Possible to do, not a super tough build (except for dealing with the exhaust), but no gaurantees it'd help very much with your wake. One way around is maybe do it assymetrically - only cupola the side you surf on?

[toyotafreak]

Sorry so big 

[extruop]

Thanks for the input.  Here is a bit more info.

When I run less weight I cannot ride without the rope for any substantial amount of time.  The wake is definitely cleaner though.  When we went with more weight the wake definitely got bigger.  It also got steeper.  This helped make it easier to ride without the rope.  The downside is the shape of the wake.  Not as clean.  Lots of turbulent water on the top edge.  No doubt the reason is weight.  Swim deck, deck hardware and or the overhang on the back has some effect.  I just don't know how much.  No doubt the severe plowing of the hull and the prop angle could be like a teeter-toter.  Once you get to a certain point more weight is probably has a diminishing return.

Did you say 6 foot board?  That may be the big difference with your experience.  The board I am riding is less than 5'.  It is very boyant but has a molded construction like a kneeboard.  I have no doubt that a fiberglass epoxy board would have less drag.  I also think that an extra foot of length would make a big difference.  Then again the keyword is think.  I don't really know.  I am just an amateur looking for ideas.

I must also admit that I rode behind a Tige a few years ago.  It had a ballast system that I believe was primarily positioned in the back of the boat and it had one large V shaped trim tab.  It had a big wake that I remember giving one heck of a pop.  Riding behind this boat with the trim tab has no doubt had some influence for this crazy idea bouncing around in my skull.  I should also note that I am not an advanced rider.  Although I ride pretty aggressively, I don't do inverted tricks and after reading other riders observations about the shape, firmness, approach, and center of a wake I know I am no expert on the subject.

Derek, if I did this, would you leave or remove the fixed wake plate?

[toyotafreak]

I guess my final answer is...I wouldn't do it, and wouldn't recommend it. Heck, why don't you pull the two rings and two pins holding the swimstep on, then remove it and go surf for the day. How much better is it? Leave the thing in the truck, though so if it's AWESOME without, you an put it back on and make sure that was the problem. At that point you'd have a little more info. Maybe then all it means is replace the swim step (or modify it if it's really close). Whatever you do, don't go cutting holes in that transom.

[brad]

We currently put 400 lb VDrive Fly Highs on each side of the engine and a 800 lb in the walkway in the bow.  This allows for both sides of the wake to surf on.  We also fill the 700 lbs factory ballast on my SX.

We've tried other arrangements but with mixed results:

 - I put the 800 lb Fly High in the storage locker, but it probably contributed to my engine chewing up the shower hose box (see other thread on the repair).  So Derek's concern and need to reinforce the bulkhead is probably accurate.

 - The Inland Surfer website recommends weighing your boat on the port side only.  With a Left Hand prop rotation, this gives the cleanest wake.  Good for traditional or regular riders but not goofy foot riders.

 - Weighing the back of the boat will increase the steepness of the wake.  Adding weight to the front will lengthen the wake given the dialed in speed.

 - A longer board and epoxy fiberglass will make the board faster and able to surf further back on the wake.  You can even recover when loosing the sweat spot with a larger board.  We have the Blue Lake (2004) surfboard that is 5'6".  You can do more tricks with a shorter board but it is harder to surf without the rope.

 - My friend has a Centurion 23V Enzo (2006) with the Switchblade.  He runs the switchblade at the 3 position and 11.5 mph with his internal factory ballast and gets a nice wake.  Last week we loaded it up with my Fly Highs and increased the height of the wake significantly.  At 11.5 mph it was almost too steep to hold the sweet spot.  When we took it up to 13 mph, the wake lengthened.  He also custom ordered the Enzo to have a right hand rotation so he would have a cleaner wake on the starboard side since he is goofy foot.

The challenge is to get the right amount of weight in the right positions at the right mph.  The length of the board can also have an impact especially if you are a bigger person like me.

We are still experimenting and haven't found the perfect solution.

As for the swin deck, yes it does mess up the cleaness of the wake but it is also nice to have it submerged when you climb onto the boat.  Other manufacturers have their swim decks out of the water several inches making it harder to climb out but they don't interfere with the surfing wake.  If you want a cleaner wake, then shift weight to the bow.  You'll probably give up wake height.

Here are a few pic's of my kids surfing with the configuration noted above (they can surf without the rope for 5 to ten minutes at a time).

[Ericks]

I am having the same problems with surfing behind my X22 2000. I feel the answer is make a new swim platform that is smaller and mounted about 2 inches higher. My platform is scratching the wake, it has to be messing it up. But I have not pulled my platform and tried to surf behind it, probably because when ever I'm at the lake I am to buzzy pulling someone. Or teaching someone how to do something behind the boat. 

[masonlk]

You love them, they're only six years old, but they're not big enough and you want to change them already? I thought that's what plastic surgeons were for!

Re-route the exhaust. Get rid of the pitot tubes. Raise the swim step. Make a hydraulically operated plate that mimics the shape of the hull and rides up under the step when not in use. When you're ready drop that sucker down 8.5". Would work like a jack plate for an outboard.

Even if it doesn't work it'll probably weight 1000 pounds and you can go back to using your storage space!

[extruop]

Well, I solved my wake problem but it wont be popular around here.  I have moved over to the other side of the freeway.  Yes, I sold my X-22.  I already have some buyers / sellers remorse and I have not even been to Powell yet.  No doubt I will have some conflicted thoughts at the marina gas pump.

This site is awesome.  Keep up the good work users!

[toyotafreak]

Kinda torn between "good luck" and "WTF?" Maybe a little of both.