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May 03, 2025, 11:14:54 am

Author Topic: Perfect Pass ?  (Read 2568 times)

happ

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Perfect Pass ?
« on: January 06, 2004, 18:58:34 pm »
 ??? What hapened with the Perfect Pass Install ???

cyclone

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2004, 22:53:27 pm »
Still working on it. I have to come up with a way to connect to the original throttle cable without losing the range of motion. I will post some pics here soon, I need some help from some fellow shadetree engineers! I'm certain we can make it work.
Pete

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2004, 04:19:37 am »
Did you try connecting the thingamajigger to the whatchamacallit?

cyclone

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2004, 23:20:14 pm »
I'm looking for a Thingamajiggy to Whachamacallit adapter on Ebay right now!
Pete

'01 Epic SX

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2004, 00:23:37 am »
You know Pete, not to $hit on progress, but they allegedly put a man on the moon without Shadetree (or solidworks).

Got some drawings you can email?
Derek Boyer
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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #5 on: January 18, 2004, 19:38:25 pm »
Got to ride in a PP-equipped boat this week. Pretty damn cool. Got me thinking again....


The big problems with Accuski were 1) had to use venturi speedos instead of the cooler paddlewheels, and 2) there might not have been enough throttle authority.

The right way to fix the throttle authority problem is through software, right Pete? But in the absence of a company that wants to work with you....would it not be possible to get more authority mechanically?

In other words, if Accuski sucks especially bad on our boats because the small engine requires more throttle variation than a regular boat....why can't we change the leverage on the servo arm? Need more travel, connect farther out on the arm, ya know?

Pete, with as much trouble as you're having getting full range motion with PP, do you think that maybe the Accuski installations are less than they could be?

Derek Boyer
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cyclone

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2004, 05:29:03 am »
I have no experience with Accuski, but I think that their problems are control response related. They can't interface with an external (paddle wheel) speedo, and they have no provision for increasing proportional gain of their system to compensate for weight changes. It is designed for turn and burn ski weenies. No offense to turn and burn ski weenies expressed or implied.

I will get hot on the PP very soon, it is winter and I am busy designing and building vacuum tube guitar amps. Too many hobbies!
Pete

'01 Epic SX

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2004, 02:19:24 am »
Okay...I drove a new SAN yesterday, which also became my first experience using PP. Troy had 1700 pounds evenly distributed and three adults/one kid. The PP did not peg speed as I expected. In fact, I watched it wander between 20 and 27 before I intervened. The owner told me 'just drive it like you drive your boat', and I did, and speed was perfect.

Not that I really had to pay a lot of attention, but when we'd first get up to speed, I'd ease off so that the intercept was gradual. When I drove the DU for him, I really throttled (tend to corner hard).

In short, I expected PP to capture and hold the speed more or less perfectly, and although it seems to do that when empty, a moderately-ballasted boat will still require attention.

How bad was the Accuski in our boats? Have any of you Accuski owners also tried the system (or PP) on other boats?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2004, 18:14:47 pm by gr8dna »
Derek Boyer
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dstafl

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2004, 05:20:57 am »
I have the Accuski and for the most part it works great,
although I have not loaded the boat up with real weight.

The one thing I like that the Accuski system does, that it will auto pull you up. You arm the system, engage the throttle from idle to minimum cruise, step on the foot control, and it will throttle up consistently the sameway every time and lock on the set speed. Rookies and long time ski buddies pull you up the same way.

I will let you know how it works with full fat seat this season. There is a rpm adjustment on the wakeboard setting but I will have to reread the technical manual to full understand the system.
Denny Stafl
2000 Epic 22, Tower, Accuski system

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2004, 18:16:20 pm »
Did you run it at wakeboard speeds in MPH mode?
Derek Boyer
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dstafl

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2004, 02:13:11 am »
I think so. I use the trick setting most of the the time. It has three adustments- Crew Weight, Skier weight, Speed. Works great, pulls up, hits the speed and sets. Only time it is a  problems, is it disconnects if alarm goes off. Things like depth, low fuel but I was able to change the setting so it hasn't been a issue lately.

The wakeboard setting has an additional RPM adustment, I'm not really sure how to properly use it.

Anyone out there know?
Denny Stafl
2000 Epic 22, Tower, Accuski system

davidgree1

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2004, 01:26:44 am »
I have accuski and at wakeboard speeds, especially when weighted it won't hold 21 mph when in mph mode.  It will lock on for a short time, wander around  then lose lock and shut off.  In rpm mode, you drive to the desired speed then activate the system and it will hold speed/rpm, but you need to increase and decrease the rpm to hold speed.  This is much better then not having a cruise control, but not ideal.  I think the problem lies with the lag in the venturi.   I even moved the computer all the way to the back of the boat and this didn't help.

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2004, 04:14:54 am »
I tend to agree with Pete that the biggest deal is poor control response - it doesn't ask for enough from the engine early enough.

It does stink that it breaks lock when an alarm goes off or when speed's bounced too far out.

I'm hoping to check out an Accuski installation on this coast. HOPEFULLY...there's either a problem with the rigging (like not enough throttle travel) or there's a mechanical way to improve (not perfect, but improve) the linkage.

Pete's Perfect Pass is surely the BEST way to go, and will offer the very best in performance (which is what it's all about, right?) I bet that by the time he's done with it, it'll work better than the current production boats since it's tuned specific for our boat.

But of course, there might be some value in trying to improve Accuski too.
Derek Boyer
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cyclone

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2004, 06:48:22 am »
It's coming. My boats been torn apart all winter, I'm stuck with the one part it needs. I will get hot now that the weather is warming up. It was almost 70 here today!!
Pete

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Re:Perfect Pa$$ ?
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2004, 01:23:48 am »
Bringing this up again. Must mean I've been back home for over twelve hours and have switched back to boat-think.

I was looking at the Accuski documentation and got the servo type from a picture listed there. A good servo, but there's better ones out there - faster, stronger, and most importantly, digital. Digital servos (never owned one myself) basically do two things: 1) allow better resolution and power by greatly reducing the pulsewidth of the power pulses (gets more power to the servomotor quicker, and allows changes in servomotor power to be effected quicker), and 2) some allow programming to vary the endpoints, travel rate, width of so-called deadband, and center point. Most of the latter points can be done mechanically, just by adjusting the length and mounting angle of the servo arm on the servo. We did that on ailerons to provide twice the up-travel than down travel and called it 'differential'. With the right amount of differential, there's little adverse yaw and little need for rudder inputs.

Obviously, I'm back to thinking of ways to improve Accuski's control response. The feedback loop (venturi/paddlewheel issue) is different altogether, and there might be a way around that (change the tach output of the Lexus into the same signal the domestic boats provide, then beg and plead with Accuski to make the firmware change to allow both tach and paddlewheel inputs to be used by the MDDC). BUT...like Pete said before, if the dash speedo is good enough for you to manually control speed, then the venturi should be good enough for speed control too (maybe marginally).

However, we're pretty sure that the control side is lacking as well, and that might be fixed easier (without having to rely on Accuski) by playing with linkage and servo. Unfortunately, I only know of one local Epic and it's not equipped, so I don't have any hardware to look at/play with.

I doubt the servo really needs to be stronger, but if you were going to upgrade the servo, you might as well upgrade the servo. Speed might be a good thing, and there are several analog servos that would offer both better speed, torque and resolution. When a digital servo sees a delta, the finer pulse widths allow more power to get to the servo quicker (reportedly). Combine a torque/speed upgrade with a digital upgrade, and we'd probably cut a decent chunk out of the lag. Not enough though.

Digital servos with programmable endpoints would allow the 'differential' I was referring to earlier. That also involves buying a programmer ($150) or finding someone with one, and I'd  rather just do it mechanically. By playing with servo arms and possibly changing the servo, I can get more throw in the important part of the throttle travel.

THE MAIN QUESTION FOR YOU.....is how would you envision we would need to change the 'map'. If it's as simple as 'amplifying' what the current system asks for in the critical wakeboard speed range, I can do it mechanically. I'm not so concerned with the single-button pull-up - just want it to track better once at speed.

I've forgotten most of what I learned about damping and transfer functions, but what I'm trying to say is that a mechanical solution would change both sides of the ramp (apply more throttle to reduce a speed deficiency and cutting throttle harder to reduce an overspeed) equally. I can rig it to ask for much more throttle, but it will also chop the throttle harder than stock when needing to bleed speed. Would this just worsen things by making an oscillation bigger?

Do you think the fix is to change the map so that there is sort of a decay, like it not only puts its foot down harder, but also lets off the throttle slower. Not sure of an easy way to that mechanically.

How would you change control response?
Derek Boyer
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