Surf Tabs - Trim Tabs to enhance Surf Wake

[brad]

Wakejunky, so glad to hear from you.  I've been curious how the new Axis has been treating you.

I appreciate your input and expertise.  The prototype approach allows to tweak things and ensure the desired performance.  Did this with my swim deck before I purchased and cut my teak swim deck;-)

[toyotafreak]

Wakejunky sighting!!!

Glad to hear your thoughts. Did a bunch of reading but obviously not enough.

Would love to hear your thoughts on lakewater inside our engines...

[tenn162000]

Thats a pretty interesting forum on the poor gate (about 26 pages at this point).   I haven't done it much but really enjoyed it a few summers ago on a mastercraft.   Would love to set up my boat for it.    Here is the website that started building them:   http://wickedwakesurf.com/index.html

[skibeau]

Wakejunky, missed your sage advice for the last 2 years. Really good to hear from you. Would love an update on how the business opportunity is going (in another thread)! Don't want to completely hijack it!! 

[JIMBO]

thanks for the advice wake junky ! please check in and chime in on this one

 i agree a poor gate is the way to go until I'm happy with the wave (or not) but Id still like to make a bracket that mounts in place of the swim deck rails that i can attach different size and shape gates to for testing purposes

as far as surfgate requiring more weight my research is limited to simply reading DIY surfgate, poor gate, teak gate etc. threads. the feedback from some guys doing these mods was that they were weighting their boats even and less to produce better wakes. as far as the wedge goes apparently the new wedge is bigger and at a different angle and is claimed my malibu to get the boat on a plane quicker but thats a whole other project. i have no first hand experience with any of this so i don't know what to think now ?  proceed with homebuilt manual gates without drilling any holes in boat and see what tests produce.

here are 4 ideas i had for gates. they are drawn simple and in the stowed position

https://www.dropbox.com/s/6ctvh803s7cpz2l/toyota%20gate.paint?dl=0

Option 1 - our stepped transom makes it difficult as its only about a 6 inch step and malibu and other guys doing this are making 12 inch high gates. a 6 inch high gate might be too small but is defiantly worth a try and would mount and stow the easiest. i think it would be the cleanest install and best for a more permanent actuator controlled system in the future

Option 2- i think moving it to the back might have a bad effect with missing piece created from our notched hull but is the most like the actual surf gate system. this would also be hard to build and line up since our rear corners are so rounded.

Option 3- this is toyotafreaks idea and  would be easy to mount to the same hinges as option 1 for testing and i even thought about making the shorter section separate and static as a sort of "notch filler" then running option 2 off the back of that becoming more inline with the professional systems

Option 4- this would obviously have stowing issues but i have ideas overcoming those and stowing for any option is completely irrelevant at this stage anyway

my main concern at this point is how much of a risk am i running attaching a metal plate under the overhang in place of the swim deck rails using the existing 4 phillips machine screws each side (i can only assume) thread into plates imbedded in the fibreglass

[wakejunky]

Thanks guys. Maybe I'll do some PM's or another thread for some of those other questions.

As for this project, I'm concerned about your level of research for this project. I'm assuming you are fully capable of building a system that actuates and uses the same basic principles of surgate or wedge. My questions are

what are your expectations for the wave your boat will make with this addition?
are you expecting 2015 Malibu vlx, lsv, Axis t22 t23 a22 a24 results? (latest gen and newest hulls optimized for surfgate)
are you expecting 2013 Malibu lsv or 2014 axis a22(mine) results? (old hulls with surfgate retrofit)
something much lower?

One way to think about it is every boat including the latest 15's with optimized hulls and gadgets will produce a better wave not using the gadgets and just listing the boat, may not be convenient or drive well or be able to switch sides, BUT its the cold hard truth.

How well does your boat surf now , listing it and using weight predominantly on the surf side or however you have best placed it?

if slightly less than this wave is not your expectations for this project, I would abandon it NOW.

Please don't take this the wrong way, I use to think my sx was capable of doing everything the new or newer boats were capable of and in the end I was dead wrong and spent lots and LOTS of money while never coming close to meeting my expectations.

Not only is the sx or s22 hull transom a royal pain to deal with because of the (trunk) overhang but the stepped hull half way  through the boat (about where your boat meets the rear tire fender on the trailer) is going to give you less than desired results. I would spend some serious time at a dealer looking at the hull shape on some of these boats. One of the guys on themalibucrew.com spent a ton of money retrofitting surgate to a 2001-2004 vlx hull - results were bad enough he abandoned the project. If I can find the link I will post it later. He even discussed a NSS version but walked away from it last I heard.

IF your serious about this project,  test your boat get the best listed wave you can and if your satisfied with a bit less than that, ill chime in and help where I can. (may want to remove your swim step as I know it does interfere with the wave, at least while your testing)

I have my own personal feelings about this project but I will not be posting those.

[cyclone]

Junky!!!!!!
Glad to have you back in the fold even if you switched over. Glad to hear you are back in a boat, means your business is doing well I'd assume, certainly hope so.

I concur with the lack of torque, with full ballast and extra sacks my SX struggles. Just a fact. I still like the fuel economy but it still sucks down gas like they all do.

Thanks for the first hand info, always helpful

[cyclone]

Wow, been out of it for a while. watched some vids. Surfgates. Who knew?? What a colossal waste of time and resources for what?? Bouncing around at 10mph on a teeny washy wave. I'd honestly rather ride my skateboard in a flat driveway.

I went out and jumped across the wake on glass at 21.5 mph, flying through the air risking limbs and livelihood. now that's fun. If I want to surf I'll drive to Cocoa Beach:)

I'm certainly not going to try to change a carrot into an orange simply because they are the same color:)

But don't let me stop you alchemists out there:)

[wakejunky]

Hey Cyclone!!!

Glad to see your back. Hell of a lake house you picked up there, Congratulations!

wakesurfing is definitely a love/hate relationship. On my home lake its pretty much useless, as the lake is only 6-8 feet deep. The wave gets pretty big in deep water. Not my primary sport, but fun to do when the lake is all chopped out or your tired of wakeboarding. Makes for a good laugh watching people try to learn how to surf.

"carrots and oranges" definitely made me laugh, so true......

[cyclone]

I'll bet a great surf boat is pretty magical, and the water's super deep here, its 75 ft to 140 ft in the main part of the lake, and 25+ in my cove. I'll have to make pals with one of those guys;)

Thanks on the place, it was right under my nose. Not having to trailer is a life changing experience, boat is always ready. Its waay happier in the water under a roof than on a trailer baking under a leaky cover.  I kick myself for not getting on it ten or 15 yrs ago. Should have bitten the bullet. I recommend it to anyone if you can swing it. Its worth being broke for a while:) I'm out fishing or doing emails, taking work calls etc or both when I'm home.

I love your new boat, new ones are sooooonice these days. Mine is showing her age but runs like a top. I wish you hadn't told me the fuel consumption was the same.

[JIMBO]

here are some of the threads i have read through when deciding if the project was even worth attempting. i know some people probably didn't have success with similar projects but here are some who did. I don't feel I'm being unreasonable to assume a better wave is possible.

1987 direct drive malibu
http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40613-teakgate/page-2
1. The wave is as good with my new gates if not a bit better than my prototype gate from the Poorman's Surfgate thread.
2. With the prototype gate, I had to weigh the surf side a bit heavier than the non-surf side to get the same wave I had last night.
3. I had two more people last night than I ever had running the prototype gate.
4. The wave is longer, cleaner, and a has a lot more push than our non-gated wave.
5. I finally tried surfing goofy - the wave is actually really good without moving a single person or bag.
6. It takes about 4 seconds to switch from one side to the other.....on an 87' Sunsetter.  :yahoo:
7. I'm pretty darn happy with the wave....especially considering it's a 25 year old direct drive.
8. Stow the gates, set the Perfect Pass for 30 and enjoy a slalom run back to the dock with no disturbance to the wake whatsoever.

2003 23foot lsv
http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/40335-2003-23-lsv-surf-gate-so-far/#entry557998
I'm sure it's not the ultimate set up, but it works awesome for my family. We ski, board, tube, etc, and this boat I've always felt was very versatile... now it's even more so. I've surfed more since having these gates simply because we had more time. My daughter and I surf goofy, and everyone else surfs regular. We'll switch back and forth all day long. The wave is much longer and more fun.

the next year he up graded to lenco actuators to improve it
http://www.themalibucrew.com/forums/index.php?/topic/44205-2003-surf-gate-v2/?hl=%2Bsurf+%2Bgate
We ski, board, tube, surf and float, so the ability to get a longer wave, switch sides so quickly, and have a balanced boat is worthwhile.    That's my two cents for anyone contemplating a project.  Still love this boat, I think it does everything pretty well.

2008 X2
http://www.mastercraft.com/teamtalk/showthread.php?t=50562
- It works VERY well, even with my tiny 17" tabs, I mounted it to the STB side so i rode on PTD
- The wake shape is TOTALLY different with a good lenght compared to anything I could get with my 2500lbs of ballast, and i was using only stock ballasts and 600lbs on PTD !!
- The tabs really delay the convergence of the wake, allowing the surfwake to roll over the delayed wake so it's not disturbed, that was the first time I could get a really clear lip on a X2
- What is the pressure on the tabs : around 80-100kgs (according to my experience and the bunch of guys who tried this like me)
- You have to slightly countersteer to compensate the gate effect...

2009 malibu 247
http://www.wakeworld.com/forum/showthread.php?t=796060
To our surprise, the fin setup on the same boat produced a taller (maybe 4-6 inches) and longer (approximately 2-3 feet) wake by objective measurements. Subjectively, everyone who has ridden behind it over the last month has made comments reflecting that the fin wake had “more push”, a “smoother transition”, a “bigger area to ride in”, made “tricks/spins easier” and was overall “way more fun to ride”.

2003 Supra Launch 22SSV
http://www.supraboats.com/bbs/showthread.php?15031-Surf-Gate-Build/page5
I have about a dozen runs on it with all different weights and conditions. Everytime I go out I cant believe how well it works. I'm now running 750 on the wake with 350 on the other, nothing up front, wakeplate at half and @ 9.5mph.Thats 1800 lbs less and 1.5mph less with no lean! Im
using allot less fuel and getting a comparable wake. I'm finding that with less people in the boat I adjust the gate angle in a little and with more I adjust it out. Completely Awesome in my book. I can't believe there isn't more DIY off these things. I've sold two of my bags since starting to use it and am contemplating if I need to up grade my pumps still since Im only filling up two bags now.

I am fully capable of building a system that actuates and uses the same basic principles of surfgate but until a "poor mans gate" prototype has proven that its worth it i won't waste my time

I don't "expect" anything from this project i "hope" it will produce a better surf wave. i am aware i will not be producing a wave equal to one on a new boat with a hull designed to produce a perfect wave, my boat was not designed for that.  

i have only ever surfed behind my own boat so i have nothing to compare to but i would say it surfs decent.

video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vgtL6J9boA
i run :
900# rear port side plumbed in (install thread to follow)
750# front middle
450# rear floor port
2x 350# on seats port side and rear depending on how many people  

my lake has 150 foot average depth (500 feet at deepest point) and is at an elevation of 530 feet

my main problems are:

#1 wave is to close to the boat. i have my swim deck removed
#2 too much time and trouble to switch sides so the goofballs get to ride the wrong side (sorry goofballs)

[brad]

Here are some pic's of our surf wave (SX) with trimmed teak swim deck, internal ballast on starboard side, 750 lbs Vdrive fat sack, 400 lbs fat sack partially filled in bow walkway.  Rider is approximately 5'10"

[toyotafreak]

See if this works via dropbox https://www.dropbox.com/s/f4jgzgakbqkun2o/20150216_151437.mp4?dl=0

700 back corner, maybe 400 under port seat, 700 in walkway (or cockpit floor, don't recall).

Stock teak underwater. Wonder how that's affecting the wake?

[JIMBO]

Awesome guys ! glad to see more Epics enjoying the surf !

Brad  , if your internal is 350 and is nearly the same place as my 450# bag then we are running comparably

                          me:                    you:
swim deck           none                   trimmed teak
surf side              port                    starboard
rider                    6'0"                    5'10"
V-drive surf side   900#                  750#             
front middle         750#                  400#             
floor surf side       450#                  350#             

looks like you are producing a nearly equal wave ?

my patricians between my trunk and beside the engine compartments are removed so my 900 is as far back as it goes partly in the trunk and partly beside the engine. i move the extra 350s around a bit but the big difference is having 8 people and the ballast in the boat. my video is old and has only 2 or 3 people in the boat

                   

[brad]

Thanks for sharing.  I don't have a partition between the engine compartment and trunk either, so the V-drive fat sack is from the seating partition into the trunk space as far back as possible.  I'll have to take some pictures next time I'm out;-)