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May 01, 2025, 20:21:09 pm

Author Topic: One more stab at the accuski/perfect pass dilemma  (Read 6142 times)

toyotafreak

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One more stab at the accuski/perfect pass dilemma
« on: August 31, 2003, 06:50:03 am »
As usual, don't expect this to be short ;-)

So to recap what I've learned from you guys here and during your time at wakeworld...

Accuski is the reason for the MMDC computer and the message center. To complete the installation, its a few hundred bucks to add: a servo and linkage back at the engine, a sort of kill switch at the throttle handle and a foot pedal. Accuski's Toyota adaptaption of the MMDC allows only for pressure-based speedo sensors like the two types of transom-mounted pickups our boats came with.

Accuski has since come out with a system that uses the 'much-better-for-wakeboarding-speed' paddlewheel speedo sensors. However, they do not have a way (or do not have the desire) to make the paddlewheel work with our application.

Cyclone has the Accuski setup (sans the paddlewheels) and in MPH-hold, the system is worthless below slalom speeds. However, he does use the system, albeit in RPM-hold mode. Being able to hold an RPM must be an improvement over throttling it, but not close to what a paddlewheel system can do.

Perfect Pass uses a different message center on their top-o-the-line model, and that unit doesn't have as cool a display as the Accuski and likely wouldn't support the other reason we use the message center - display readings from the Lowrance depth finder (which mine has gone on the fritz, by the way.)

Perfect Pass also makes a simpler version which has no display unit, just a 2" round unit installed in the dash with the exact same buttons and functions of a typical automotive cruise control application.

Overall reviews from non-Epic owners is that Accuski has many very cool abilities but that PP pulls a little more reliably.

The options, as I see them (based on what I remember you guys saying) are:

1) Adapt the Accuski to a paddlewheel setup. My impression is that our MMDC can't easily be upgraded to accept paddlewheel sensors. Unless we had some really good insight into the inner workings of the MMDC, we'd be unable to adapt our current boxes to paddlewheel. Accuski might have a better chance at modding one to meet our needs, but I'm sure that they're influenced at least a little bit by the fact that they'd be taking on work for a pretty small sliver of the market. If we knew what was going on inside the MMDC, we'd have a much better chance at figuring out how to hotwire the unit for paddlewheel.

2) Get Accuski to adapt their most current MMDCs (shipping with the other brands of boats) to work with the Toyota, and then replace our MMDCs altogether. Specifically, it seems they'd have to ensure the computer could still read signals coming from the engine and turn them into signals to drive the dash gauges. Also, the unit would need to be able to display depth finder readings. Naturally, this system would accept the paddlewheel speedo, and they've already got the foot pedal/kill switch/actuator dealies all worked out. The bummer for us is that we'd have to replace a couple hundred dollar MMDC. The bummer for them is that the same 'business case' still might keep them less than motivated about taking this on. I'm really curious to see if there's a hardware difference between the Toyota application and the others (as far as engine interfaces, dash outputs, etc.)

3) Add Perfect Pass to our boats. As for me, I'd just get their simplest MPH-based system with the car-like controls (drive to a speed and then engage the cruise.) I'd stick the 2" control dealie in the gunwhale next to the throttle. Did I mention that the simple system is $700? Also, Perfect Pass has unresolved issues with the way our throttle linkage works (don't quite understand this part.) Could it maybe be possible to merge the Accuski linkage/kill switch with the PP speedo and controller and leave the MMDC and message center in there to display depth?

4) Make our own system. Don't laugh. First, the system has to accept input from the paddlewheel (a known signal). Second, it's got to have an interface no more complicated than On/Off, hold and faster/slower. Add a kill switch tied to throttle position. Once armed, the unit will have to 'remember' what the speedo was saying when you hit 'arm'. From that point on, it simply compares desired and indicated speeds and outputs a signal that a model aorplane servo can accept. I've not programmed them myself, but there are chips called PICs that might be able to handle all of this. I think all we'd need is some time to figure the system out, and the benefits would be simplicity and cost - PICs are like a buck, and the means to program them is pretty cheap and accessible too. The other alternative would be to do it old school, with discreet components. Might even be easier to design.

Finally, there's even a possibility we can do it all electronically. Look in your engine manual at page SF-32, step 4. The Throttle Position Sensor looks like it converts mechanical positioning of the throttle cable into an analog electrical signal heading towards the throttle body. What if we inserted something equivalent to an A/B switch and produced the electrical signal ourselves when in cruise control? Engaging the cruise disconnects the signal being generated by the throttle position sensor and replaces it with the control signal generated by our cruise control setup. Pressing off or moving the throttle level places the switch back into the normal position, where throttle position is set by the throttle linkage. The good deal is that there's no servo to fail and no linkage to adjust. It simplifies a home-brew design because we don't have to build the servo interface or the linkage. It does cross some boundary, like 'do you really want to start snipping wires in the engine's electrical?' This approach could be done pretty damn clean, and it could even come into play with getting the Perfect Pass system on our boats.



Pete, I'd really like to know what the Accuski and PP guys told you about their major malfunctions. What exactly is the hangup? What stuff do I have wrong, and what have I missed?

And no, I don't smoke pot or do speed.
Derek Boyer
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happ

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2003, 19:24:32 pm »
I dont think it will be too hard to retrofit either system. I will share with you what I have learned and what my hesitations are. Maybe we can all get through this together.
 
First we need to decide if we want to use accuski or perfect pass
 
Accuski does have a paddlewheel for our system. They just will not commit on the best location for the paddlewheel. This is something we have to overcome on either system. The paddlewheel needs to be 6 in. off the center line of the hull. There can be nothing in front of the paddlewheel that may cause turbulence. This has been my main hesitation. (Who wants to be the first to try this?) After we find the best location we can try the accuski just by buying the system.

I dont know what the refresh rate is on either system. If they are the same I think accuski would be the way to go. If not, and PP has a better rate, I feel fabricating a linkage will be no problem and will take this task on. (why make just one)

If we go with PP we need to go with the top-of-the-line system as it allows you to adjust paddlewheel sensitivity. Since the system is not set up for a toyota, I think we can use all the adjustments we can get.

I am all for this . . .  went out on an x-star and PP is a friendship/marriage saver.

toyotafreak

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2003, 23:23:44 pm »
If Accuski's only issue is where to put the paddlewheel, we've got the thing in the bag. No brainer.

My impression was that there was more to it. Pete, speak up when you get off the lake.

I don't mind cutting my boat as long as I've made peace with the location.
Derek Boyer
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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #3 on: September 01, 2003, 02:53:12 am »
I spoke to Guy at accuski this past spring and I was told location of the paddlewheel is the only thing I can't get support on.

I want to speak to PP and accuski and find out how often the system checks and adjust the speed. I know PP works great. I have never heard a wakeboarder say this about accuski. (may just be for lack of paddlewheel)


davidgree1

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #4 on: September 01, 2003, 05:21:24 am »
Let me know if you can get the paddle wheel to work with accuski.  I have accuski and even moved the computer close to the venturi and this didn't help in mph mode.

toyotafreak

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #5 on: September 01, 2003, 18:54:40 pm »
I looked under the boat yesterday and can see why Guy's hesitant. To get 6-7" off-centerline with a 2-3" speedo means we're going to be really close to the innermost chine. As far as placement goes, it might be good to ask him which is worse: getting too close to a chine or getting too close to the centerline; what are the risks with both.

I'm stoked so far, though.
Derek Boyer
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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2003, 15:02:23 pm »
Randy Eisner at Perfect Pass said:

"Sorry we do not do anything with the Toyota boats"

That's not to say we couldn't hack a solution, but the Accuski path shows much more promise.
Derek Boyer
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cyclone

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2003, 23:10:11 pm »
Derek, other than the fact that I don't have Accuski yet, you got the rest right. DavidGree has it and had the problems that you noted.

I am willing to drill holes and test things, I can probably get a used MMDC from my dealer. I think that Accuski would probably work with us
I have seen the paddle wheel speedo mounted to a bracket on the transom, I think it was on a Tige. Maybe that would be an option, too. I get conflicting answers about whether or not the paddle wheel is available, Guy and Jack have different opinions. I think we should pursue it.



« Last Edit: September 05, 2003, 08:18:49 am by cyclone »
Pete

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2003, 00:43:02 am »
Dang, Pete, I thought I saw you had it.

Pursue it, aye.
Derek Boyer
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davidgree1

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2003, 04:11:19 am »
Why won't PP work on any boat?  Can't the throttle linkage be modified to fit any boat?

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2003, 17:18:00 pm »
Linkage can be fabricated. The two remaining issues as I see (with the base PP model running in parallel with our existing system) are 1) what kind of electrical interfaces the PP will need with our engine (ie. tach) and 2) whether PP wants us hacking their system.

If we wanted to go the full-feature route and replace the Accuski stuff with PP stuff, we'd also have to worry about driving all the dash indicators (oil pressure, temp, fuel, voltage, speed, tach, maybe the alarm lights, and the depth finder) with the PP system. My gut tells me that we wouldn't be able to do it without seriuos support from both Accuski and PP.

Either way, we can be sure that we'll be without any kind of warranty support.
Derek Boyer
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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2003, 01:52:05 am »
Hey Pete,

I had Atlanta Marine put in Accuski last summer.  I say its a POS for wakeboarding which is all I care about.  You are more than welcome to spend the day on our boat and see if you can get it to work.

It is very nice for waterskiing, although, I have never pulled a skier.

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2003, 03:55:41 am »
I read the installation instructions for PP.  I don't see why it wouldn't work on a Toyota.  The only interface is the wire going form the tach to PP.  PP doesn't seem to be exclusive to any engine type.

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2003, 07:10:40 am »
The things that I hear are nice about Accuski are the ability to set pull characteristics for individual riders. One button push to pull a rider from a dead stop. I hear that the user interface is better than PP. As for functionality, everyone says the same thing. With venturi type speedos, it sucks in MPH control. For RPM control, it works ok. For a weighted boat going relatively slow, (wakeboarding) it sucks. I think, with an accurate speedo with good feedback, it would work fine. The problem with venturi speedos is the air cushion between the pickup and measurement device.  It is not responsive enough for control in MPH mode. Same is true for PP. Accuski offers a kit to move the computer to the back of the boat for V drives, that's what DavidGree did, he says it still sucks and I'll take him at his word.

If PP only needs a tach input, that's easy. They need a speedo, but it doesn't have to go into our box, just into their system. Calibration may be difficult, we have to determine max stroke, change in RPM, and change that unit to MPH under different conditions. And have accurate feedback for closed loop control. I can calculate open and closed loop control variables easily with data from bump tests I generate or data I get from you guys. I suspect that our boats react much differently to RPM changes than typical wakeboard boats with GM engines. Different amounts of weight change that too.  We would require different EPROM programming, I can do that too if necessary AND if they are willing to work with us. Then we have to design and fabricate some hardware and modify our 16k engines. Lots of work and risk.

The bottom line is, Accuski has done the groundwork and manufactured the hardware and programmed the interface for our boats. All we need is a more accurate control. That is it. I I think that the system will be BETTER than PP if we can jump this hurdle.

For 500$, I'll probably put the upgrade in my boat this winter. With more aggressive tuning of the control parameters, I think it will work AT LEAST OK with conventional speedos and weight. I can give Accuski the numbers I want, they can program them into my MMDC with a two day turnaround.  From what I've heard, I think that they are undercontrolling, not bumping RPM enough to stay in the speed deadband.

If you can maintain speed accurately by hand, then the speedo is accurate enough for control, it is just a matter of tuning. Atlantabuff, I would like to get together with you and do some tests, time permitting. I have two boys (10 and 13) that have volunteered to participate in any and all experiments.
I'll email them tonight, I'm home for once:) (new job)
Pete

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Re:One more stab at the accuski/perfect pa$$ dilemma
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2003, 15:58:36 pm »
PP uses speed from their own paddle wheel not from the venturi's.  I think that is why their system is so much better then accuski.  The lag in the venturi's at wake board speeds and the vdrive boat barely on plane makes it impossible for the accuski to lock on.  I don't see why the pp wouldn't work on any boat since it gets all it's data from its own paddle wheel speedo.  Does it even need tach info?