SX Ballast upgrade

[cyclone]

So, I ripped out my factory manifold for the ballast, containing the pumps and solenoid valves. I am replacing the factory system that restricts flow down to .5 inches going to each tank with upgraded valves and plumbing. I bought the valves on Ebay, they are 1".  I hooked up the old and new systems on the bench and flow tested both manifolds. The original system took 1.5 min to empty a five gallon bucket, the new one did it in a hair under 30 sec. In both cases, that's with one valve actuated.  That translates into an original fill time of approx 24 min vs 8 min with the new system. My system always had trouble holding prime, there are a lot of places for small leaks in the factory system, I chose to use PVC for most of it for fewer chances of leaks. I also repositioned both pumps so that they will  prime more reliably. I also checked both pumps for cracks in the vanes of the pump and housing seal. I used liquid pipe sealant on all hose and threaded connections.

Here's some pics. I removed everything and then added a bronze 3/4 45 deg elbow to tilt the pump back so that the bubble will float out. it is tilted about 20 deg forward in the factory installation and won't prime reliably. I reinstalled the fill pump and shortened and reversed the valve handle. I did the same thing with PVC to the drain pump, angled it back so that the air bubble won't be trapped in the pump. It is quite a tight fit so I designed the manifold so that I can remove it all in two pieces. I used clear PVC hose so that I can see if I've got flow or an air bubble in the lines. I'll have to remove the manifold assembly if I want to replace a pump, but it doesn't take long.

It would be pretty hard to use a different pump type in this application. If I were to REALLY want to speed things up, I'd move the drain pump to the rear and add a drain port at the back of each tank. Then, I could put in a BIG fill pump and use the two original pumps for drain pumps. I plan on using the factory solenoids for more ballast somewhere. Underseat sack coming, and I have two sacks for the vdrive storage.

[phenom_1819]

Pete, why did you use those valves instead of sprinkler valves?  Hopefully these fill faster?  Anything that could be applied to my stock system with three sprinkler valves to speed it up?  Good luck with the project... looks like fun.

You should come out to Pateros for Memorial or July 4th weekend this year.  We have about 34 people coming for Memorial!  And Terry, Aisha and baby Avery are coming for July 4. 

[cyclone]

Flow. Sprinkler valves are very restrictive. they require a lot of pressure to open fully. They also require pressure to close fully. Tell you what, I have an Orbit 1" sprinkler valve, I'll hook it up and perform the same test. I think that's what Supra uses.

I would think you could cut your fill time down drastically with better valves. How long does it take to fill your ballast right now? Do you have the Rule 2000 fill pump like the other supras I've seen? You should look at the capacity of your fill pump and do the math to tell you the theoretical fastest possible fill time. Mine is 4.36 minutes for 80 gal with a 1100gph pump.

I'd love to come out, unfortunately I have something huge planned for both memorial day week and for the 4th this year.  Too bad, I'd love to see everyone. Terry would love his boat, it's been inside all winter and is clean and dry:)

[phenom_1819]

Agree, sprinkler valves are very restrictive...  Somebody recently experimented by removing the springs in the pumps... it did increase the flow, but the valves would allow water through on their own.  So it didn't work.  My boat uses a 750-gph Rule pump that splits to 3 3/4" Orbit sprinkler valves.  Its a horrible system.  I would love to know if yours work better.  Are the valves ignition protected?

I know there's a better way for my boat.  I upgraded my ballast system over the winter to 2250 lbs, all automatic.  (2) rear bags are about 700 lbs each, center bag is 400 lbs, and integrated bow sack under the front seats adds another 400-500 or so.  Integrated bow sack is on an independent Jabsco ballast puppy reversible pump.  Total of about 2250 lbs.  400 lb bag fills in about 8-10 minutes, 700 lb bags take about 15-20 minutes to fill.  Ridiculously slow...

Newty and Moombadaze on the Moomba forums are getting very creative (and complicating things)... I think there has to be a better way.  Here is the most recent thread on their projects: http://moomba.com/msgboard/showthread.php?t=7373

If only the Supra/Moomba community had you, we'd have our ballast issue figured out by now!    Good luck with the project, Pete.

[cyclone]

Neat thread, that's some nice work. I like how he oriented the drain pumps with that little bracket. That's the best way to have them, with the outlets straight up:) I jumped on many a sack before I figured that out.

So you have one of those white Attwood 750's that they sell at Wally world for 18 ducats as your supply pump? Wow, that takes me back. That was my first ballast system in my Epic22, fat sack in the trunk and a sprinkler valve and one of those. It took forever to fill and burned out pumps quickly. I went through two before switching brands. The Rule pumps work much better. I sold the boat with a 2000 gph filling a bag in the trunk and one in the walk through. I had the walkway sack fill pump primed and fed from a t off the 2000, two pumps in series with lots of check valves. It was also a push/pull aerator system like that in the SX. It was fast and foolproof.

The valves are ignition protected because they are just an electromagnet and a diaphragm. It is a sealed coil, just like on a sprinkler valve but it's MUCH higher flow.

http://cgi.ebay.com/3-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12-volt-DC-VITON-SEAL-B21V_W0QQitemZ300305226351QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300305226351&_trksid=p4634.m332.l1262

Swap those valves out with these and see what happens! You might upgrade to a faster pump, a 2000gpm rule is nice, a Rule 1100 is pretty much a drop in (1" outlet vs 3/4") The valves will make the biggest difference, I think. I need a fitting, I'll get it tomorrow and give you a flow comparison between the sprinkler valve and the solenoid valve. 

[brad]

Okay Pete, you're the man once again!

I'm so ready to follow your lead to upgrade my SX ballast performance including isolating fill/drain for wakesurfing.  My other goal is to modify/build a new swim platform which won't impact/distort the surf wake.

Keep the photo's coming and novice instructions.  I need all the help I can get!

[phenom_1819]

Yeah, the pump is a bit old school... but from what I've read, the valves are so stiff that upgrading to the Rule 2000/gph doesn't affect fill-times at all.  Thanks for the help and doing the tests, Pete.  So are the valves you are using just motorized ball valves?

[cyclone]

Cal,
The valves are of a remotely similar design, but very different in terms of design application. Sprinkler valves use water pressure to assist opening and closing. They don't open or close fully without relatively high water pressure (think water hose on full) The diaphragm solenoid valve I used opens fully with no water pressure.

The valve I used is for gravity feed, it has a huge solenoid coil and very flexible rubber diaphragm. A large metal slug is moved when the coil energizes, moving the diaphragm about .25 in and allows wide open flow.

The second valve is the sprinkler valve. It has a very small coil, that basically opens a bleed valve and allows water to flow around the back of the diaphragm and displace it, allowing limited flow. There is a large spring that the water pressure must overcome. The diaphragm is nylon and very stiff.

I'll do a flow test today and post the results;)

Pete

[spokanesx]

Pete

I am about to start collecting the parts to build your setup for my SX.  I found the valves on ebay.  I have not been able to find Rule 2000 GPH pumps??  I may be searching for the wrong things but so far I have come up empty.  Where did you find yours?

After having the summer to use the new pump set up is there anything you would do different?

[cyclone]

I used Rule 1100 pumps, they were the factory ones and they still worked . I think you could fit Mayfair pumps in there but anything else (tsunami) would be too big unless you did something different with the shape of the manifold. I changed the position of the drain pump, gained clearance. with the manifold.

I had to dry fit the manifold and pumps, and angle the fill pump with a 45 and rotate it a bit CW so the body of the pump cleared the valve. There isn't a lot of room to work with but it's doable.

You could use 3/4" valves and gain some clearance and not lose an unacceptable amount of flow by my measurements.

If you use bigger pumps, 3/4 is plenty to fill very quickly and drain very quickly.

I could take some measurements of the manifold I made if you'd like.

[spokanesx]

Thanks Pete.  That is good news.  $90 for the valves and misc parts is pretty cheap to cut the fill and drain times in half.

[cyclone]

One thing that I didn't mention in this post is that in my tests http://www.epicmarine.com/forum4/index.php?topic=1655.0
the Toro 3/4 sprinkler valve that I bought for 13$ performed really well and is relatively compact and very light. I'd probably use those if I were to do it again just for the clearance gains. 

[brad]

Pete:

Any tinkering over the winter on isolating the built-in tanks (i.e., fill starboard only...)?

Getting the itch to figure something out.

Thanks,

Brad

[Johnny B]

i don't know how you guys are working in that small area.  I can't seem to get my pumps out because they are screwed on to the mount from the bottom and there is no room to get to the screws... is there a secret?  I bypassed the intake pumps and just fill them manually now with a tsunami pump and use the drain pumps to empty them.  Now one of my drain pumps doesn't seem to be priming itself.  It runs but doesn't pump..  any suggestions?

[Johnny B]

well I figured out the drain pump issue..  it seems someone squirted silicone into my drain hose on the outside of the hull and completely blocked the passage way..  no wonder it wouldn't drain!  I'm not sure how this happened since the boat stays in dry, secure storage when I'm not using it.  Sometimes it sits outside the house for a night or so... either way, it is fixed now and works great!