EPIC ADVANTAGE

[h20proof]

I am still in the market for an Epic, but have all winter to find just the right one.  But I was thinking...what are the advantages to owning a Toyota?  Of course, the most inmportant would be the fuel economy....but what else?  I was thinking that I might spend $1000 a year for gas (in my last boat).  So, in a Toyota I'd spend maybe $400-$600. 
That's a good savings, but I also have to factor in that I'm paying more to buy an Epic.
Why should I spend the extra cash to get a Toyota over another boat?
Let's say I cold get a 2001 S22 for $26k or a 2001 Ski Centurian/Tige for $22k.
Now, I'm going to save on gas with the Toyota....but what else do I get for $4000 besides a boat that is no longer under warranty?
I am still interested in the Epics, just wanted to see why you guys love them so much.
Thanks for any opinions....

[toyotafreak]

Fuel economy was ranked 332 in my list of reasons to buy.

Call them lame, but the main reasons I wanted/want mine are that the Epic is:

1) unique in a million ways, including the fact that it's the only boat made by an auto manufacturer

2) it's a TOYOTA, which connotes to me that it's built with very good attention to detail (it's not perfect, but really good)

3) the interior layout of the v-drive is just as clean as boats come

4) the engine is a work of art and I expect it to run strong for 20 years at 50 hours per year

5) it was just a ton of boat for the $27K I paid - like new even at 130 hours - a perfect specimine


Since then there have been things I've learned that are negative and things that are positive. I for one would probably do the whole thing over again. My friend has an '03 Centurion Avalanche that's got some real plusses: holds speed better with the 350 Magnum, the stock wake has more pop, it's got snap-in carpeting, it's still under warranty, there's a dealer down the street, it gets pretty good gas mileage and looks real nice. They bought theirs new in '03 when I bought mine and paid around $40K, and to this day, I think I'd still prefer our S22 than the Avalanche, despite all those factors like dealers, warranty, torque, newness, etc.

For me, the fuel ecomony is the one factor that keeps me at ease regarding the small displacement of the engine - it's harder to hold speed without PP and you can't put more than 3K in there with the stock prop. Neither of those are real big deals, but for me, when I do the math and find that we burned 3.75 GPH again, I think to myself, "well, that's your reward for the extra throttle work."

[eagle1wi]

I assume none of the 2001 boats you are looking at will be under warranty.  The certified Toyota repair shop is about an hour away but I have only "had" to have it there once in its life.  Almost all the maintenance intervals can be done by you or a competent dealer MC/SN/Malibu etc.

Things I have learned from owning my 1999 E21:

1) The 4 Liter motor always starts and runs smooth - Lexus/Toyota Reliability

2) Quiet at idle speeds - you can easily talk over it (remember mine is in the center of the boat)

3) People want to check it out all the time because most have never seen one - even the boat patrol wanted to see the engine

4) Probably won't need a rebuild for decades (I have 700+ hours so far)

5) It's built well, even had a competing dealer (across our lake) that winterizes my boat admits that it is more solid than boats he sold.

6) Gas prices will probably go up even farther - that 500/yr difference may turn into 7,8 or 9 hundred before you consider selling, with the hours I put on I capture more of the fuel advantage than you might.  When I bought mine fuel was about $1.50/gal

7) It doesn't seem to dirty oil at all, I usually change it when it is still golden

When I bought mine I almost "saved" $1500 and bought a demo Tige with 30 hours.  Hundreds of hours later I am glad I didn't, nothing against the Tige, but I have more than made up the difference in fuel and I bet that the resale on the Tige would probably be worse if it had as many hours as my Epic as 350 Chevrolet's would probably be approaching rebuilds.
 
One downfall is that the maintenance might cost a little more, synthetic oil changes, timing belt needs to be replaced as a maintenance item.  Good thing it is much easier and less time intensive compared to the Lexus LS/GS auto models it comes from. From how you describe your boat use you won't have to do this for at least a few years.

Which Ski Centurion or Tige are you considering?  Carb/EFI/Multi?
 

[epic_toy]

I definitely second all of the above. I just finished my fourth season and the only thing that's gone wrong was a noisy blower (not Toyota part). This is my first ski boat and I didn't know and wasn't aware of the fuel economy advantages when I bought. Lucky for me.

In school I studied a little bit of Reliability and we did some case studies of Big 3 products vs Toyota assembly philosophies. It's not as bad as it once once, but Toyota is still better in terms of Quality. One measure of this in auto industry is recalls. It's hard to forget that kind of thing. Put those same philosophies in a marine environment and it's even more important to me to pay a little more for peace of mind.

Ever looked at a used 4 Runner? Why are they so ridiculously expensive? Not sure if the same thing will hold true for the boats, but I'm thinking the boats will hold their value pretty well too. Hope that helps.

[phenom_1819]

Derek, I know you're sick of hearing this.  But seriously. You've gotta get Perfect Pass.  I love my boat times 10 now (OK, times 100). 

[toyotafreak]

Understand. BTW, good to see ya, Cal!

[cyclone]

Every time you see a video of a terrorist dude riding in the back of a truck with an RPG launcher over his shoulder, it says Toyota on the tailgate. Doesn't matter if it is in Chechnya, Iraq or Peru. That oughta tell you something!

[phenom_1819]

Good to see you guys too!  I had a very marginal wakeboarding season, so my mind has been elsewhere lately. Don't ask.

(okay, landscaping).

[ScarabEpic22]

I want to get perfect pass installed, anyone know about how much $$$ it will cost me if I install it myself?  I have looked at the how-to in the articles section, and doesnt seem as though it would take very long to do.  Also, would I have any problems with mounting the guage because my boat doesnt have the newer dash, with the bigger guages?  I have 4 small ones, 2 on each side, with a raised tach in the middle, surrounded by the 2 speedos.

[cyclone]

Scarab,
You can get any size PP gauge you want when you order, you can get a 3.5" one to replace one of your speedos, if they are the smaller ones. Our boats have the same gauges that everyone uses.

One other big Epic advantage is lower overall maintenance costs. We require one oil change for every four that a pushrod V8 does. Our plugs last longer. The boats were designed and  built with the philosophy that they should not spend time in the shop a couple of times a season for regular maintenance.

[ScarabEpic22]

Thanks, 3.5in is the right size for me to get then!  I hope to order it soon, but I am working on my tow vehicle now (2002 Chevy TrailBlazer LT), and that is keeping me busy.  But since my boat is in CDA, and Im in Seattle 330mi away, it isnt exactly top on my priority list now.  It will be come April when I will order the PP.  Final question, where is the best place to get it?

Thanks

[cyclone]

Well, sometimes guys on Wakeworld or Wakeboarder do group buys to get the price down, so keep an eye on those boards. It is boat specific, either the gauge or the cable or something is different. In our case, the controller box has different firmware because our tach signal is like a 4 cyl tach. NO big deal, but if you used an off the shelf one for a V8 our tach would read 2x as high. You can have your dealer get it for you or you can call PP direct and get it. Make sure you tell them it's for a Toyota, so you get the right firmware and the special adapter bracket.

[ScarabEpic22]

Thanks, I think I will call PP and order it through them.  I should check the price difference between factory direct and through Ski Masters...

[cyclone]

If you are not the handy type or are squeamish about taking a 2" hole saw to the hull of your boat, I'd get an installed price. The PP price is on their website, I think it's about 1100. A fair price for installation is around 200$

[ScarabEpic22]

I hope Im a little mechanically inclined, I just drilled 2 1in holes in the roof of my TrailBlazer!!!  Naww, I think cutting through the glass wont be that difficult, but since Ive never done it before, any tips for me?

Thanks