What quality fuel do you put in your Toyota Boats?

[blueplastic]

 

Since I purchased the 99' Epic 22 a year and a half ago, I've been putting 93 grade gasoline only in the Epic. The previous owner told me that he occasionally put lower quality fuel in there and that the engine is intelligent enough to compensate for the lower quality and fire differently. (However, I did have to change the spark plugs as soon as I bought the boat(it had 250 hours on it))

A friend saw me putting 93 grade fuel into the boat earlier today and is trying to convince me that I wouldn't be harming the engine by using 89 or 87 fuel. He says that I would lose some power, but that's it. He has a lexus car and uses 87 with no problems.

I know that the Toyota Epic 22 manual says:

"The ignition timing as set by the factory requires the use of an unleaded fuel with an Anti-knock index Number/Pump Octane Number range between 89 octane and 93 octane (92 Recommended).

Notice: Use of low-quality gasoline or gasoline with an octane rating below the minimum level listed will damage the engine and void the warranty."

So, I can use 89 octane instead of 93 in the future?

What quality fuel do you put in and why must I use only premium fuel in the boat?

[dawsonr]

When I bought my Epic 21, it was at a "factory" sale, where there really were Japanese reps there.  They explained the computer to me this way.  When you burn lower octane fuel, a knock sensor picks up the pinging and retards the timing, reducing the pinging (knock).  Knock is the detonation (explosion) of the air fuel mixture (gas burns, it is not supposed to explode in an internal combustion motor).  Detonation is like taking a sledge hammer and pounding on the top of the pistons.  By reducing the timing and eliminating the knock, it saves the engine from damage, but results in lower power output. 
The short version is if you want 300 hp from your engine, burn at least 92 octane.  If you don't care about loosing 20 to 40 hp, run lower octane fuel.  In any event, the computer is supposed to sense knock, protect against it and it does work.

[shawn]

I run  cheveron 92, and i got 660 hours before i had to change my plugs, and our plugs are not cheap so  i recommend running no less then 92.

[wakejunky]

writing this only because people think they know more than the manufacturer who developed, tested, and eventually put in to production our wonderful engines. Then the manufacturer actually spent time and money on a warning label to inform some of us cheap ass's what is recommended and not what we can get away with. Your 99' toyota epic does run on PREMIUM FUEL. just do the $%@ing math. premium fuel is about 10 cents more then mid grade, Your specific epic has a 27 gallon tank, if it is bone dry and you put 27 gallons of mid grade in you just saved yourself $2.70. Iridium tipped spark plugs are in the range of about 10 dollars a piece and with 8 of them thats $80. You can then get about 30 tank fulls before you save $80 and Im guessing you wont break even before you engine needs a set of those spark plugs. and that does include labor or your own time to change them. BUT THEN? you could throw in some of those cheap ass autolite's that run about $2 each. after a couple trips to the lake you may start to notice your boat is low on power and pings. So you decide to get on this site and post a Question about your new ping and power loss and then we could all chime in and recommend you run PREMIUM FUEL and factory DENSO plugs. Its a vicous cycle. My epic has 515 hours on the orignal plugs and its never pinged once. Dont mean to sound harsh but Ive been on this site for about a year or so and I cant even count how often this stupid subject comes up. for gods sake step up by the premium and save yourself and us some headaches. You actually might get more time on the water.

[blueplastic]

Wakejunkie,

I understand that the manufacturer spend time and money putting the warning lable on the boat, but I'd like to know why? Why technically is 92 grade fuel better than 87 grade fuel in the boat? Manufacturers put all sorts of labels on all sort of products and it doesn't necessarily mean that one has to follow them blindly.

I also seriously doubt the boat would have serious pings and any significant power loss. The previous owner did it and said that he noticed nothing wrong. Also Rick form Toyota told me that putting lower grade fuel would be detected by the intelligent engine and it would fire diffrently to compensate. He said that maybe I would have to change the spark plugs sooner, but it won't damage the engine. If the engine can recognize lower grade fuel and fire differently, why would I hear pings and lost power???

Also 87 vs 93 grade fuel in Orlando, FL has at least a 20 cent difference. So that throws your calculations off by quite a bit.

SF

[2000epic]

as for me, I am not about to risk my $16k motor "experimenting" with anything other than what the Ph.D equipped engineers at Toyota say is right for my beloved boat regardless of cost.  Things might be different if I had a 15 year old Ski Centurion witha run of the mill 350 merc., but I've got the most advanced engine ever saddled in an inboard sportboat, and it gets only the best.

BTW Octane numbers represent how fast/slow fuel burns.  Higher numbers burn slower.  And in our case a lower octane fuel could burn off before the piston reaches the bottom of it's stroke resulting in a power loss whether the computer interceeds or not.

[Lakeside]

Do any of you live in these counties?

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/whereyoulive.htm

These counties are required by the EPA to use reformulated gas (RFG) for cleaner air.  This means Ethanol or MTBE.  Use of Ethanol (alcohol) is warned against by Toyota Marine. 

Where I live, the oil companies use MTBE as the additive.  Does anyone know anything about MTBE and whether it harms our engines?  Does Toyota say anything about MTBE?

Fortunately, I can drive about an hour to get non-MTBE gas.  Unfortunately, this road trip gets old, so I'm wondering if anyone knows anything about MTBE?

[wakejunky]

Thanks 2000 epic sounds like at least someone knows something about fuel quality and octane ratings.
 Blueplastic if you have done your homework and talked to people in the know why are you still asking and not doing? why dont you go save your 5 bucks a tank and find out why its not recommended? by the way what did rick recommend? It sounds like you havent done your homework and you know nothing about octane ratings, compression ratios, knock sensors, timing or basic toyota computer logic behind all of the "premium fuel" recommendation. 87 octane burns much faster then 92 and when that combustion event happens well before it should before or right at top dead center it drives the piston and rod straight down into the crank and causes "ping" . this should happen a few degrees after top dead center to achieve maxmium power. its like slaming you leg into a bicycle crank right at the very top or just before and all of that force is directed straight down or even backwards.? ?you want to kick that crank well after TDC so the power is transmitted to turn the crank in the forward motion that its already created. you dont want to slow it down or worse try to make it spin backwards. if that force is directed straight down slamming the piston into the -rod-crank-bearing-block that will damage your engine and thats why power is down your trying to stop or even reverse that engine. combine octane ratings with compression ratios and carbon buildup from lack of octane and find out why an engine with knock sensor logic can ping.
? ? I deal with this 5 days a week at a Toyota dealership and our engines share almost everything with the Tundra engine including the computer logic. Ask a Tundra owner how much better his truck runs on premium. or after about 80,000 miles why someone who has been using 87 octane engine pings. its called carbon buildup which increases the compression ratio well beyond the 10.5 to 1 our engines have new. the computer can only adjust so far and then you here (ping) the lower the octane the sooner the computer hits its limit on retarding timing.
? ? But what the hell run what ever you like its only a $16k motor. Im sure all that money saved will help you break even. and my calculations are not wrong you just cant read. I was comparing mid grade and premium. but who cares right?
? ?We would not want to walk blindly.

[cyclone]

http://www.epa.gov/otaq/rfg/faq.htm

There's more in the FAQ, good info. Check the Where you Live for counties that have opted in and out of the ReFormulated Gas deal.
My county sells RFG, but the one 2 miles away where I generally buy my gas, has the old stuff.

If you DO have RFG, then it is a state by state, county by county thing whether it has ethanol or MTBE supplying the oxygenation that makes it reformulated.

Ethanol is bad, eats up rubber parts like your high dollar fuel pump. SO, it sounds like you should use......

Non reformulated, high octane gas. I use Chevron or BP which sells what used to be Amoco. 93 octane. Incidentally, Amoco made unleaded fuel since the 50's, people used to call it white gas. It is very clean running. Amoco 93 had a funny champaigne color, the BP premium looks the same to me. Exxon premium is purple and will stain the insides of your fuel system purple. Runs fine though. Kind of cool, actually.

Reformulated gas, with MTBE. It has been banned in the usual places, the blue states. There are some potential health hazards, i.e. the perception, anyway.

Reformulated gas with ethanol. Supposed to be bad, I wouldn't use it unless I had to. I wonder if there is an additive that would prevent the negative effects of the ethanol on rubber. My guess is that the engine would probably adjust to the fuel quality or lack thereof.


You can probably get away with crappy gas for a while. You could also put cheaper plugs in, half the ones on the shelf will fit in that engine. There are dozens of cross referenced ones, any auto part store.

You could use conventional petroleum oil, too. It works fine for a while.

You don't HAVE to put the cover on it, lots of people never cover their boat.  If you're going to treat it like a Bayliner, why not just get a Bayliner?

[toyotafreak]

Wakejunky, now you've got me whining about Chevron regular unleaded in the Sequoia. It's one thing to put $3 gas in the Epic, but quite another to do that in the ~15 mpg grocery getter. Does it help that I put the Techron in it every 5K?

[wakejunky]

? ? ?gr8dna, "techron fuel injection cleaner" is one of the best products on the market to clean and remove carbon deposits. Please dont mistake techron gas with techron fuel injecton cleaner. The only thing I have found better is "BG 44k" injection cleaner. It is for professional use only but most places that use BG products will sell it to you. be careful it will eat the paint off your car. BG makes all kinds of fuel, oil, transfluid, etc. additives they are some of the best Ive ever seen.
? ? ?Tundra's and Sequoia's along with Landcruisers love premium fuel. Go figure only the Landcruiser a $65000 machine recommends premium on the gas door. Most of the employes at the dealership that have these vehicles have switched over to premium.? They just flat out run better. get better mileage and avoid potential problems in the future.? If you want to test this theory you can make a test run from a dead stop and drop the pedal to the floor, feel the acceleration. this will give you reference for what your about to do. Now disconnect your battery for five minutes and then reconnect and immeditely take a second pass. you should feel a difference. This is much more noticeable the lighter the vehicle. for example a 2 wheel drive access cab Tundra vs. a 4 wheel drive Sequoia. What your doing is reseting the computer and resesting "learned values". Your vehicle has actually had to learn to run on 87. when you reset the computer the basic logic in the computer is based on 92 octane fuel and that takes a while for the computer to adjust down to 87. So you can actually feel the extra power for a small time just by dissconnecting the battery.
? ? ? Let me share something with you about fuel, it may apply to you or not you will see why. In Bakersfield every gas station in town Mobile, Chevron, Arco, Gas War all get there fuel from the local refiniery (cox petroleum). I was getting gas one day and saw the delivery driver fill the stores tanks and then dump in a gallon sized bottle in. I went up and asked what he was adding and he explained to me that all the gas is the same except in regards to octane rating and that differnt brands have different additive packages that they promote and sell such as Shell V-POWER and Chevrons Techron. These additives clean and lubricate the fuel system. Some brands have no additives at all. He explained you just want to find a station that sells alot of fuel so it is always clean. So what Ive learned is to not buy Chevron but Fastrip gas instead. Only because I too add a fuel injecton cleaner every 5K miles. If you do not use a cleaner regularly you may want to stick with a brand that has an additive.
? ?Also I have been out of town and seen CHEVRON trucks filling CHEVRON service stations. Is there blend different? I do not know. I would assume not.
? ? ? ?In regards to MTBE. In Kern county we do have MTBE and in California it is being phased out in the next two years. Even with the new tanks there are too many reports of ground water being contaminated. But they are working on a new oxygenating chemical. For you own info, Oxygenated fuels are reducing engine power about 10 to 15 percent!!!!! When manufacturers realized MTBE was tearing up rubber products they changed the compound to resist it. This was done before our boats were even made. So hopefully we should not see a problem.

[cyclone]

That makes a lotta sense, Wakejunky. I know that there is not as much refinery capacity here anymore, so we import the same refined gasoline from Saudi or Venezuela or wherever, other places with less stringent pollution controls. It must just be additives, i.e. gasoline brand differentiation. I guess I never thought about it but it might be better to buy vanilla and put in your own additives. I know there are differences in the way certain cars I've owned (40 or so with V8's:) run with different brands of (additives)gas, and what the fuel systems look like after long periods running one fuel.

I've used that BG44K stuff before, they say don't use it more than every 35k miles, it's corrosive to aluminum, pretty aggressive stuff. For 20 yrs or so, I used to get XPF-66 Motor Top End Conditioner from GM dealerships, that was awesome stuff for freeing stuck valves, carbon buildup etc. I'm a total Ford guy and would grovel and go in a GM dealer to get that stuff to fix a Ford that ran with a rich carb and broken choke/thermostat/egr/shitty gas etc. for an extended period. You can probably still get it. Probably eats aluminum, too.I've seen significant runnability problems solved with that kind of stuff, but with quality detergent fuel you don't have those problems. I think that spending 5$ more per tank to get it premixed is not much at all. My problems stopped when I bought newer cars and used better fuel, regular maintenance, uh, what the manual says, basically.

I'm just sayin' I'd be hesitant to experiment too much with a 16k motor. I'm gonna do what the manual says, maybe a bit more.  For the boat that is.

BUT, I have lots of other vehicles and would like to test some additives with less expensive fuel, if you can recommend some, sounds like you are in the business, I am not anymore. I have a couple of things I can recommend that I know from personal experience work very well.

Do the Tundra and Sequoia have the same compression ratio as the M1UZ? I'm curious, I'm thinkin' 4.7 or whatevers bigger at the time when my engine wears out (in another 22 yrs or so:)

[toyotafreak]

Wow, that's some good info - thanks for taking the time to get it down. First, I don't use Techron in the boat at all because Dorge and the owner's manual recommend against it. Second, the 4.7L is much lower-compression than the M1UZ. Third, just wait a few years and you're gonna see a Durmax/Cummins/PSD/F-350/3500 TOYOTA. The guys on Tundra Solutions have been talking about it for some time, and some of the guys seem pretty well-placed. TOYOTA has an alliance with a company that makes real diesel trucks; not semis, but those diesel like box trucks, etc. Anyhoo, that firm is being contracted for design work of the chassis, drivertrain, brakes, etc. Only drawback besides being some years out is that it will probably be expensive, if big Fords are $50K, then a big TOYOTA might go fo more, huh? There's also a bigger gas engine coming much sooner.

[wakejunky]

? ? ? Hey guys ive got a little info on those last couple questions.? The 4.7 Tundra/Sequoia have a 9.6 to 1 compression ratio. Early models have 245 HP with 315 ft. lb. torque. The 2005 now have 282 HP with 325 torque. This is due to adding VVT. The word on the new heavy Tundra's is they will be out this fall!!!!? They will have the 4.7? and the NEW 5.8 liter engines available. As far as diesel, it might happen in a couple years. But not for the release this fall. Toyota has very extensive Knowledge and production of diesel engines on their own. In europe and basically anywhere but North America diesel are extremely popular. Had a co-worker overseas who was able to drive a Sequoia sized toyota that was diesel and was VERY impressed with the output. Honestly i doubt they will out source their diesels but it is possible and you maybe hearing more info than I.
? ? ? ?As far as additives I agree with gr8dna and cyclone I would not recommend harsh additives to our epics fuel system. as most of you know our system consists of alot of rubber hose vs. trucks that almost the entire fuel system is steel lines these days. I was mainly refering to our tow vehicles. And yes I too baby the living crap out of my boat. I only use synthetics and good fuel. With very few service centers left for most of you if any. I wouldnt be taking chances with something you intend to keep for a while. with the idea that parts and service could be an issue I dont think its worth it unless your not keeping it.
? ? ?If you are interested in some additives(for vehicles) I am sold on BG products. I just havent come across anything better yet. They make a fuel system additive that is called MI3000+ which is basically good every 3 to 5K. It has some of the same stuff as the 44K but fuel systems can handle it on a more frequent basis. To be honest you wont need the 44K if you run this stuff about every 5 to 10K. If you think your epic has a carbon issue I believe you can safely run a can of 44K or MI3000+ BUT do it on a weekend you will burn through the entire tank and then some. You dont want it to sit in the lines for along time. Some of you maybe very hesitant to do this but in reality sometimes you have to chance things to fix things. For example if you have been using 87 octane and you have alot of carbon buildup theres only two ways to get rid of it. You can pull the heads off and scrape it off or you can use these chemicals. It could cost you in excess of $2000 to pull those heads and thats if its based on car labor rates.
? ? ?They also make an additive called MOA its an oil additive that triples the basic additives in oil that burn up over time. Even synthetic oil additives burn up well before the oil breaks down. I use this and the Automatic Trans fluid conditioner in my epic. The trans additive also is a large dose of basic additives that? will extend the life of even synthetic oils. Im not saying go beyond the 200 hour intervals. Its just good extra protection for that engine.
? ? ?For our vehicles they also make a good engine flush. It breaks down the sludge and deposits in your engine. last they have a cooling system conditioner that will extend the life of coolant. These all work in diesel engines as well. I use them in my 1999 Ford F250 diesel.
? ?

?Cyclone I would be interested in hearing about those other ideas you have come across.

[highflyn]

Wakejunky
Now that all of us know your a Toyota motor EXPERT (at least in our eyes) let this be the first of many questions concerning our Toyota Trucks.
I own an 03 Tundra with 245 hp. I'm not looking to break the bank, but would like to get a few more ponies out of her. Do you have any recommandations for me? I have a K&N air filter and will be filling up with the expensive gas later this week.
Thanks
Terry