BAD NEWS

[rypdavis]

It appears that I have only the second Epic(2002 Sx-22) ever made that has leaking ballast. I found this out because the engine was cutting out (due to not getting enough air) and water came up though the carpet all along the drivers' side. I took it to the dealership, they said that the ballast pump that empties the ballast didn't work, so they replaced that. The next week we took it out and tried it again, same problem. Because the boat never had this problem when the ballast wasn't filled, I told the dealership that the ballast must be leaking. A Toyota rep came to town and discovered that the ballast does indeed leak. Unfortunately this is a problem that cannot be fixed. I am completely bummed because this is an awesome boat besides the ballast problem. So now I have two options. I can either get my money back (don't know if it will be a full refund or what since it was bought used), or get the money back from the ballast option (5 or 6k i think), and do my own custom fat sac system. The only problem with the custom fat sac system would be that it would take up all the storage in the rear around the engine. If I could get a full refund for the boat, which I think would be around 48k or so, I probably would almost have to take that, wouldn't I? But say if they only gave me 30k or so, I wouldn't be able to find a boat that even compared to the Epic for that price. So I guess I just need to wait and see what they offer me for the boat, then look at boats around that price and see how they compare. I hope that I am the last Epic owner to have this problem because Epics are truly awesome boats.

[cyclone]

I'll bet that you could seal the tank with some kind of sealer, they make it for gas tanks, etc. I certainly would try.  Even if you got a refund, you would pay for it quickly in gas consumption with any other boat.

I think that they are too lazy to fix it, just like my chronic electrical problems that me and others have had since new. The issues are not serious enough for me to want the boat in the shop for the summer, but I always got the same pathetic excuse, that it can't be fixed. That is Lambing bullshit. I could fix it, but I am a lot smarter than your average 8$ an hour boat mechanic. So much for a "bumper to bumper" warrantee.

I still need a schematic showing the pinouts of the MMDC box, I could fix my problems in short order if I had that. No help from Toyota or Keyser Medallion, believe me I have asked for it.

Toyota hasn't done shit for us Epic owners, and they rely on this forum to do a lot if not all of their support. No quarterly newsletter, no updates, no contact of any kind. I have no patience for excuses from that sorry bunch anymore.

If they had any sense, they would do whatever they could to keep the boats around, looking good, for a long time. They have warehouses full of parts that they pay taxes on and storage costs, etc. that will never be used. In my humble opinion, they should give us the parts to keep our boats alive. It's a lot better business than raping us on price and denying warrantee repairs, while paying the overhead on all those parts.

The boats are great for a lot of reasons, but support is NOT one of them. I doubt I will ever buy anything that says Toyota on it ever again. Oh what a feeling. Thanks a pantload, Toyota.

[plus]

Sorry to hear about the bladder issue.  Seems like it could be fixed... someone would just need to put some thought into it.

My left side speedo has quit... I tried blowing out the lines, didn't fix it.  I'm going to try reversing left and right lines - see if it's the gauge or pickup.

It's not much of an issue - it's such a great boat, it's hard to complain.

Plus

[DENNIS]

Pete,

Tell me how you really FEEL!!!

The sad thing is, I agree with everything that cyclone has expressed, Toyota has abandoned us without a care.  We all have awsome boats with no support from the multi BILLION DOLLAR corporation that supposedly prides itself with customer satisfaction and standing behind their product. 

Dennis

[toyotafreak]

I was gonna recommend changing the title of this thread, but "Bad News" seems very appropriate. Not to make light of the leaking ballast tanks, but Pete's comments are pretty newsworthy too.


I would be happy if:

1) TOYOTA let us know what's in inventory (I asked Nichtern but he declined). Ensure inventory is reserved for Epic owners, not offshore engine builders.

2) Leave at least two Epic engineers on staff. Forever. Still curious to see if Dorge wanted out or if he was pushed out, but if Rick and Bill want out too, then bring somebody else in. With the right terms, I would be very interested.

3) Get a techincal writer in there RIGHT NOW to properly document all the info that Dorge and Cohn are sitting on. See 'I'd be interested' note above. The fact that there's not a real shop manual for this boat is normal for the domestic marine industry but abhorrent in ANY other circle. Effectively NO effort was made by TMS to make a good set of maintenance instructions - I've seen the service bulletins and stuff the dealers were given and it's piecemeal, redundant and contradictory.

4) A fix was developed for the ripping stitching problems. My boat lived in a garage for three years and 130 hours before I owned it, and I've been witness to how it's been used since. There's no way in hell that this beautiful vinyl should be ripping at the seams. What do I do? There's more vinyl in stock, so maybe I should just buy up some vinyl that's subject to premature ripping.

5) A fix was developed for the indicator and speed control issues. Big functions that matter: oil pressure, engine temp, fuel level, battery voltage, PADDLEWHEEL speed, tach, engine hours, depth. I'd support fixing Accuski by adding the paddlewheel and gain controls, but it'd probably be better to move away from the total servo/digital approach and just reconfigure for a simpler system. Either approach could get expensive from both R&D and refit standpoints, but a smart team could do it well and cheap with maximum reuse of existing wiring, etc.

6) For the v-drives, a d-drive style drain plug that is removed and inserted from the inside of the boat mounted midships by the bilge pump - water collects there while the boat's trailered unless on a five-degree or better slope, then the water will exit the garboard drain.

7) Probably a few other things such as how my my swimstep thuds up and then thuds down when little waves lift the rear of the boat.



In TOYOTA's defense, Rick, Jeff and Bill have honored many service and warranty requests in the past, and Rick's been allowed to provide a small amount of technical advice on this forum. My one interaction with them was their support of my tower remounting (dealer installation was unsat.) and overall the experience was positive.

The number two problem with the situation is that there is just a nearly complete lack of information coming from TOYOTA. This leads us to speculation and maybe afalse sense of security. Not to be cynical, but usually when an organization keeps something like this quiet, they're just trying to delay the confrontation until it's just too late to stop.

Get some friggin books written. Give us electronic and paper copies of everything. Give us drawings and names and if you're set on turning us loose, then prepare us by finding and documenting workarounds for parts and service issues.

[breakawaydaze]

Wow,

What happened to the forum mood today??

 Yup, they quit making boats,

Yup it sounds like they left us with a support group of one. ?

Yup, the parts are only availiable through dealers who feel like they need to take our $$ while they can, (we are a captive audience).


But...It is a great boat, as a matter of fact it is a Fantastic Boat. ?When I sold my E21 to Ramblin Wreck, I suffered through many other inquiring buyers. ?I wanted to sell to someone who cared about it. ?It's special, It's rare and you can't get it from anyone anymore. ?Ramblin Wreck will care for it, it will be around for a long time. ?I bought my 2002 S22, because I would hope that I have it for a real long time, for that matter, as long as I care to have a boat at all. ?I will be overprotective of it, ?over maintain it and ejoy the crap out of it. (except for the big digital gauge, man it pisses me off!)

Toyota does'nt suck, they quit making boats. ?They want as little to do with them as possible. ?They need to do very little in order to instill a little trust in their small and shrinking owner base!  Just release some info,  Set up some factory site, if anything, just some maintenance info or at least a online shop manual!

Being Captain Rick has to suck, he has the whole country, he is on the road all the time and from what I hear, he has to tell alot of people "no".  I am sure he has extremely conservative boundries because anything he does is just flat expense, no chance at all for any financial recovery from goodwill adjustments.  No one can get a new Toyota Boat now, they will never be back. The whole Toyota Marine Program was a huge financial loss from day one for the Manfacturer.  Too high of quality, too technically advanced pwerplant, too expensive to begin with and too low of inital production. ?But really, I cannot tell you how many Epics I have seen on the Boattrader and Ebay that are just trashed and neglected. ?I mean beat to crap boats that were just discarded! ?Everyone runs to the manfacturer, fix this for free, fix this for free, no I never maintain it or winterize it but it should always be perfect, Its a Toyota! ?I would hope that they do care enough to take care of us who do care for our boats. ?I am sure I will have an oppurtunity to test Toyota and my warranty, I still have 2 years left, hopefully it will be a good experience.

Alot of boat dealers suck. ?Many of them have no business sense, parts inventory management, or stable employee bases. Very few train their techs and it is so seasonal, It's a tough business all around. ?I am surprised that there are as many good ones as there are. ?Ownership changes with the wind and they will dump a boat line with little or any thought. ?I am thankful that there are a few good boat dealers out there. ?I think the dealer base and how boat dealers operate totally different than car dealers caught Toyota way off guard. ?They really expected more.

I would not have bought a Toyota in the first place, (let alone two!) If I did not think I could not fix it myself or that it would not last.  I bought my E21 long after they quit making them.  I knew what it was, and what I was not gonna get. ?It's gonna last, It's gonna last a long time! ?It's too special. ?Yup, sometimes on a real bad day, I just go look at it. ?Yea, I just sit in it too.

Pete, the site is great, I cannot tell you how much I appreciate it! ?It has helped so many times, and I am sure it will help a bunch more.

Yea, its all worth it, everytime it starts and everytime someone says, "I did not know Toyota made boats" and everytime I wonder if the fuel gauge is broke because we never really use a bunch of gas!

Whats left is us and this site. ?I find great comfort in it. ?I probably would not be an Epic owner at all if it were not for Pete and the other members on this site. ?I know its hard to stay positive, but WTF ?I am smilin from ear to ear everytime I get on the lake in my Toyota!

[epic_toy]

Seems like rypdavis didn't get his questions fully addressed? Although the above thread is good stuff....

If I had a chance to get money from Toyota that is equal to or exceeds market value of a leaking boat, I would definitely go for it (my2cents). If you want to stick with Toyota, just get another one. They're out there. In fact there was a sweet one on here yesterday from indynick....

[breakawaydaze]

Looks like we all got off base,

 I agree, If they will not fix it and offer to buy, get all you can and buy another!  I doubt you would get retail (48k) but they should give you at least enough to replace it with equal (if you can find it!)

[rypdavis]

To respond to what Pete said about fixing the ballast - the Toyota Rep got everything sealed up but said the ballast still wouldn't work 

[wakejunky]

WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE CALL THE WAMBULANCE!!!!!!

First we all know Toyota stopped making boats and alot of us bought them anyways. I bought mine last April. I knew and all of you know that owning a boat with this much state of the art shit may have some issues. and we are going to need parts, Eventually. But most of us bought in KNOWING all of this.
toyota is not going to throw parts away even after the 10 year mark. They are only required to keep auto parts for 10 years also. that doesnt mean they throw them away as soon as they dont have to have them. Toyota has huge parts wherehouses and even though they may not move those parts often they will be there until they runnout. I had my dealership tell me i couldnt get my customer a brown clam shell (the part that covers the steering column before the steering wheel) for a 1986 toyota truck because the wherehouse had just sold the last one. Now how old is that vehicle and thats a very slow moving part. Toyota has an obligation to there dealers. especially those that are still helping our sorry asses. if they sell us those parts direct for less. why will those dealers help us? THEY WONT. Yeah those parts are expensive, all toyota parts are expensive and add the word "MARINE" and any part gets expensive. They arent marking the price of those parts up. thats what they sold for when they were still building boats. I have the benefit of being able to work on my own boat. What would some of you do if your ACTIVE dealer told you to go pound sand, Because you think there parts and service are too much. How many of you are mechanically inclined to overhaul a Dual overhead cam with variable valve timing engine. The support is dropping because the dealerships have high turn around. For someone who is trained enough to work on these engines is a rare thing and they want to be paid top dollar. These boat shops cant afford that kind of labor. SHIT my dealership cant afford to pay even a quarter of us top dollar. Toyota as well as every other manufacturer is having MAJOR trouble finding automotive techs. This is seriously affecting the automotive industry. So how do you think they can find qualified techs who are willing to make say $10 bucks an hour at a boat shop when they can go to the auto dealership and make $28.

Please people if you want this to last even a year you need to give these dealers your business. if you only show up every 5 years needing a part and try to tell them they should mark it down because it cost to much. do you think there going to stock that shit or even want to order it for you. GUESS AGAIN!

As for anyone on here who can give us support such as "CAPTAIN RICK" I thank you for everything youve done and will appreciate anything you do in the future. If this is there way of giving us support I welcome it and support it. I know you cant always tell us EVERYTHING but I appreciate what ever you can. Part #'s and technical info is a GOD SEND.

rypdavis - my 2 cents. be glad they are willing to do anything. I would keep the boat and have custom bags built to fit in the hard tanks. you can use all your pumps, wiring, switches, etc.

Yeah I love my boat its my prize possesion. Its got 550 hours on it. all Ive ever done is maintence. It still has the original plugs and runs like a champ. The original vinyl's stitching is falling apart by the week (never had a cover till I bought it last april and it was in Arizona) not bad for 6 years of sun. Next year all new vinyl all white. took a few new people out the other day and when i fired it up and dropped it in reverse and they started laughing I turned around with a stupid look on my face and they said "weve never seen a boat start that easy and just back into the lake in a matter of 10 seconds" I just laughed and asked what they were use to? the answer "oh a Malibu". Ive even pondered the notion of getting another toyota a little newer so it will last longer. I have no hesitation about parts availability, and with this web site and guys like cyclone and captain rick , I plan on owning a toyota for some time.

If anyone needs help with something and I can be of assistance just let me know. I have access to a lot of factory info on the automotive side and about 98% of it can cross over. all in all its basically a lexus GS or LS 400.

If someone can let me know of an active dealer on the west coast please chime in. Looks like I need a new drive belt.

[krejciman]

Yeah, you're sorta right about the parts they keep in stock.  I happen to work at one of those really big warehouses full of Toyota parts.  Good thing is, MOST of the parts on our boats are either 1)Standard Lexus engine parts  2)Standard tournament boat parts.


There are a few parts(like the fuel pumps?) that are specialized marine parts, but those are limited.

Sure seems like there would be a way to correct the ballast problem....  like inserting a fat sack that roughly fits the opening.

Hmmmmmm

[cyclone]

That's my point, they could fix it if they wanted to. Here's how I would do it. Disconnect all external connections to the tank. Blow it out with compressed air until it is dry inside. Find some kind of sprayer (thin it and use a garden sprayer) to completely coat the inside of the tank with contact cement. Insert a small weather balloon and inflate it until it is bulging out of all the holes in the tank. Let it dry, and cut the balloon away from around each hole with an exacto knife.

[toyotafreak]

About the tanks, you'd have to treat them like an aircraft's fuel tank - cut some access holes and then paint the interior surfaces with a liquid silicone or something similar. Not a huge deal; kind of half-a$$ed, but doable. If you love your boat, just get the tanks fixed and have TMS foot the bill.


As far as the other topic....

Good points, guys. It's hardly ever constructive to bash the mouth that feeds you, but after a certain amount of time, doubts about their goodwill creep in. Every once in a while it surfaces, but then we get on an Epic love fest and the doubts get pushed down. The fact of the matter is, all we can go by is what we've been told and that's that Technical Support will be ending next year (wasn't the committment for five years from 2001?) and that in six years, that warehouse full of parts will be free to move wherever. Enjoy being able to get in touch with Rick and Bill now, because going by what they've told us, they're bailing next year.


Re. the cost of parts: I paid well over $200 for one seat cushion without complaint, and have commented that certain prices quoted by Rick have been very reasonable. I'm not looking for a great deal on TMS parts, I'm just looking to find out what inventory's in the system and at what point it will be dumped, and to whom? If there really is a 'huge warehouse', then simply letting us know what's in there would go a HUGE way towards easing my personal concerns.

Re. the use of dealers: I will have my boat in a boat shop only when absolutely necessary. When that happens, I'm gonna do it in a way that will give them the best chance of not screwing stuff up. Fact is, nobody at a Sea Ray or Tige or Whaler dealer is going to take as much care as I in protecting the easily-damaged stuff like vinyl, carpet, gelcoat and threaded aluminum stuff. HOWEVER, I have and will continue to order parts through them without big complaints. I don't use them for scheduled maintenance, but do use them as my parts point. That's okay.

Re. the remaining TMS personnel: Rick has a tough job that's probably gotten a lot tougher since Dorge crossed over into automotive. Rick's been around for a long time; he and Bill are like the last guys on a sinking ship. Every charge they make adds to the TMS venture's loss. Every minute Rick spends on this website is either a cost TOYOTA's not charging for, or personal time that he's spending on work stuff out of his own goodness. I respect him for his knowledge and for being the last one to hang in there for us. When he finally breaks from the TMS operation, he'll take an amazing amount of irreplaceable info with him. I respect his move, but wish that the company would make the investment and get his knowledge down on pdf.


How hard do you think it would be to reactivate their website and post the parts list along with retail prices and quantities updated like quarterly? They already use some kind of web-based application that connects to TOYOTA's inventory system, so maybe just making that available with read-only access would be the ticket. It lists wholesale prices, but none of us are stupid enough to think that dealers aren't entitled to mark up the prices. Also, how hard to scan and post all existing service information (bulletins, campaigns, dealer training info, etc.)? Finally, a message board area for them to post info to us owners and a FAQ area that answers most of the common questions about the boats and the oganization.

Maybe I'm alone in this, but such a website would make me feel immesurably better. There are a lot of people that invest that kind of work into websites for Little League teams and Cub Scout packs.




BTW...what are you gonna do to replace this trim piece? Any idea how much time/money it will take to make a replacement and then have it gel-coated to match? Be kinda nice to know how many are in stock. Maybe I should be pulling molds off them before they get too bad.

[cyclone]

This website costs me less than 200$ a year. It is not a large expense, and I don't spend a lot of time on it. Toyota could and should do something like this for us. I did because they didn't. Obviously, I don't have the knowledge or resources that Toyota has. I think that they owe us some kind of support network, and that they have come to rely on this site for a considerable part of it. I watch at least 5 Toyota commercials a day telling me how great they are. SO, I get a little testy when they tell people what they can't do for them. Automotive vs. marine, blah blah blah it's the same name and it's part of the reason I bought the boat. My customers don't want to hear excuses when they are losing 40-100k per hour when my equipment is down.

[lesman01]

The issue is getting the data. If Pete or I had access to the data, we could post it here. I have no problem using my skillset to help with this site. I often try to think of ways to make the site more usable. If someone at TOyota could part with the published knowledge of our boats...part lists, numbers etc...even minus the pricing, I'd put it on here in a database. Previous attempts to get it have been unsuccessful through various sources.

I'm trying to think of a way to organize the collective knowledge on this site. It's easy to do a keyword search in the forum to find out about topics, but as we're somewhat unorganized and most have ADD, I usually have to read through pages of replies to get at the meat. ANy ideas? Maybe an FAQ, or sticky topics(so they stay at the top of the forum), for most commonly asked questions, without all the cross posting that I'm often guilty of myself.

Still, Toyota could surely pony up for some of this development. It's not like it needs maintaining every week. It's just historical data.

All I'm saying, though, is that I';m willing and able to do as much development as needed to get it on the site, but need the DATA.

And thanks a TON to pete for hosting the site.