need more info - Epic SX, S22, X22

[h20proof]

I am trying to gather some more info before I make an Epic purchase, but it's hard with the toyota website no longer running and not much additional info on the internet (thank god for this site).   Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think I have figured out that all X22's are Direct Drives, the S22 is the VDrive, and the SX combines the two and gives you the ballast and the VDrive all in one boat.  Has anyone put a ballast (homemade or maybe a Rival ballast) in there Epic?   Also, does anyone have any websites that I can go to for more info?  I would like some specs, details on which models come with what, how many cupholders there are.....you know, the important stuff....
Thanks.

P.S.  Should I hold out for a good deal or does $32,000 for an SX(2001) or $27,000 for a S22(2001) sound like a good deal?

[h20proof]

Forgot to ask....any big differences between the SX and S22, besides the ballast system?  Do they use the same hull? 

[festivus]

Josh,
? ?I'm pretty sure I am regarded on this web-page as the foremost authority on these boats, so let me chime in first...
You have the info correct on the d-drive/v-drive models.? The X-22 is a super nice ride, I have been on one a few times.? What is your main passion in the water?? Boarding?? Skiing?? It will make a difference in the recommendation.?
As for the S-22/SX, they share the same hull and pretty much everything else.? The main difference to me, as again, I have spent extensive time on both, is the gear ration in the transmission.? The SX is has a wider power band (?terminology correct?) so the hole shot is little stronger and it holds speed consistently better, but the S22 is also plenty adequate to tow with.? I think it was more designed as a runabout/boarding boat rather than a true wakeboard boat.? You won't see any factory ballast systems on an S22, so if you want to use the boat to the full wake potential, you'll need fat friends or fat sacks.? Also, if you see Gravity Games decals on an S22, they shouldn't be there.? The SX was awarded some sort of great wake prize in 2001, along with other reputable boats such as MC, Malibu and Nautique, so just because it doesn't come with an LCD screen ballast control, the ride is great.? There are some threads about home-made ballast systems, I don't have one in my S22.?
As for the price issue- It'd depend on the hours and condition, but in general I'd say they seem a tid-bit high.? Again, if they are in excellent condition and have some extras- racks, lights, etc., it may a fair deal.
Ok, go ahead and correct me Pete, Derek,Cyclone and the rest of you true geniuses...oh yeah, and Bitzco.?

[Bitzco]

THe SXs came with more options standard including the tower that were only optional on the S-22s. My SX has internal ballast, tower, shower, heater, and probably other stuff that I can't remember which were optional. I agree with Fest that the price seems a bit high but not dramatically. Bring em down 3 grand or so and I'd say you are in the right range. Having driven all three X-22, S-22 and SX, I can't recommend one over the other. They are all different and it depends on how you will use the boat. If you ski a lot X-22, if you board but also roam around a lot, S-22, if you are a wakeboard nut, SX. No corrections Fest, just elaboration.

[toyotafreak]

Welcome to the site. Now, the biggie here is that this site represents ALL of the technical information available on the WWW. Won't find another repository of anything worthwhile anywhere, BUT...you may find some less-biased (and sometimes less-informed) feedback from riders and drivers of the Epics on other websites like WakeWorld.

If you're looking for a well-built, keeper boat, any of the three you mentioned would be outstanding. The single biggest thing is that you need to make peace with the ending factory support and its implications which has been addressed ad nauseum here. Next, you need to get in one of these babies both on and off the lake. They are truly beautiful in their interior layout and cleanliness. CLEAN is maybe the best word we can use about these boats. Also, depending on how anal you are about wake size, shape, etc., you've got to ride behind one empty, with 1500 pounds and with 2500 pounds. I friggin love the wake with 1.5K, but some of my friends are used to steeper wakes, specifically the Centurion Avalanche and the SAN.

Festivus has a good point about the transmission. The S22 is geared and propped to be a good runabout, where stock prop gets you almost to the engine's redline of 6K and about 43 mph. This leaves RPMs between 2900 rpm empty and 3700 rpm heavy - even with VVT-i, it's still not a real torquey part of the power band. To raise that up to 3500 and 4000 would probably make a big difference in speed-holding. Most people that drive my boat really have to adjust to the amount of throttle throw that's required to hold speed both empty and weighted. Then again, I drag-raced that Avalanche and pulled away from the 350 Magnum.

Then again, the answer really comes down to Perfect Pass. Pete did the application work for them and now everyone's raving about PP here. Kind of a no-brainer unless you're living in SoCal on one income like me ;-)

Big suggestion is just snuggle up to your PC and start digging through the archives.

[h20proof]

Thanks everyone...it's nice to get a quick response.
The info on the different gear ratio's helps a lot.  I am now leaning towards the SX and although it's more expensive, its got lower hours (about 20), ballast, cd changer, and a heater/shower.  All of which are not on the S22 I'm looking at. 
The SX I'm writing about is at Ski-Masters/Seattle watersports.  I think I saw a post about them.  They are asking too much, but I think they will come down.  It is hard to beat with only 20 hours, but it is a 2001 and all boats depreciate.  I am a little worried about the resale if I have to sell it (which I hope it never comes down to that...)
Also, the service worries me a little because I am not into mechanics and even though my friend is a mechanic, will he be able to work on this hi-tech engine?  Can car mechanics work on these or are they special? 
Couple more questions guys....
Are the warranties transferrable?  Isn't it a lifetime hull and 5 year driveline?  Or...??
I heard that they will be servicing these for 10 years....was that 10 years from 2001 or 2002 or
I think the boat I'm looking at has AccuSki.  Does it really differ that much from Perfect Pass? 
I would just be using it for the most basic functions and all I need it to do is hold a wake and surf speed.
THANKS!!!

[toyotafreak]

About maintenance and stuff...the very worst case scenario might be a little ugly, but for 90% of the stuff that may go wrong, any inboard shop could handle it.

That boat's been for sale for a while. Take your time and read here and then go get hooked up with Cal, Terry and the others up where you're at.

I didn't have either luxury, so I'm jealous of you.

Also a little jealous of the SX's wet-floor ballast. It's not a lot of weight, but I'd just LOVE to have them voids under my carpet full of water. The last time I rode behind my boat I had only one Bump (750lbs) in the very center of the boat (aft end up against the tranny cover) along with four adults and two kids. The wake was definitely fun and bigger/firmer than empty. I reckon that's about what that wet floor will do for you, and it's a nice jump up from stock.

[lesman01]

The way I look at it, owning any boat requires a certain amount of mechanical knowhow. During my decision process to buy a boat, I factored in that I would actually ENJOY learning how my boat works, and tinkering with it. I'm by no means a mechanical guru like Pete or Freak, but I do like learning how things work.

Everything I've read and heard about an Epic is that they are one of the most east to maintain boats in it's class. That may be a bold statement, but having owned several Toyota products and knowing what a workhorse their engines are, I tend to believe it. This does not mean, however, that it will be maintenance FREE. If you can find a mechanic that knows Epics, you're home free. If your industrious and want to do your own maintenance, there's plenty of info on this site on how to do most anything....with more to come.

The other thing to consider is that on any boat...stuff breaks...not just engine and drivetrain stuff, but locker handles, seat posts, naviagation lights, trailer bearings, boat buddy's, scraped decals, locker hinges, etc...minor stuff but annoying just the same.

Freak is right, any inboard shop can handle 90% of that stuff...or you can ask here and surely someone has had the problem.

Sounds like you are doing your due dilegence to come to a conclusion, so all this may be old hat to you. Good luck on your boat search.

What's that saying?? The 2 happiest days in a man's life...the day he buys a boat, and the day he sells it.... Hope I never experience the later with my Epic.

[ScarabEpic22]

Yey, another Seattle member!!

I bought my 99 Epic 22 Charcoal w/Surf interior from them in Jan 2000.  It is in Coeur D' Alene now, winterized  .
As for the Ski Masters boats, I saw on of them, cant remember which one though, and it seemed to be in OK condition.  On of the boats they have there is a ski school boat.

Good luck!

[h20proof]

I'm in Idaho also, near CDA.....and why is your boat winterized?  It's not snowing yet!!

[2 tall]

I am over in Montana and we had 3 inches of snow last night, and 1" the night before. Good thing I winterized last weekend. We skied the week before (end of September) in water that had to be about 50 degrees. 

This forum has been very helpful. I am also looking to become an Epic owner as many others on the site. I have had an I/O runabout for a few years and I am ready to upgrade. I am really after an Epic because of Fuel Economy. I wanted a top quality ski boat that wasn't burning 12-14 gallons per hour and Toyota fits the bill. I understand about ballast and weight affecting GPH, but does anyone know about fuel economy differences between an Epic 21 and an X22 unloaded?

I am thinking an X22 (as per Bitzco's recommendation for skiing, and they seem to be more available) or a 21 since skiing our is our main passion. I love the sleek lines of the 21 and the real "ski boat" feel, but I like the open bow of the 22.

 Any thoughts on the fuel economy?

[curtis]

2 Tall,
My E-22 has a four blade, running 4000rpm the speedo's was dialed in 32 MPH.
We used a GPS to verify the speed. The VT300i information states 4000 RPM,
7.50 GPH,@ 34mph. That was based off an E-21 I believe. Any other X-22 or E-22
owner out there that can verify?
Thanks,
Curtis

[ScarabEpic22]

I'm in Idaho also, near CDA.....and why is your boat winterized?? It's not snowing yet!!

I actually live in Seattle, so Labor Day is about the last time I can get over.  Also, my place in Kidd Island Bay is in the back end where the water is only 4-5 ft deep in the summer, so after Labor Day, when they drop the lake, it cant stay in the water.  It is in Seattle for the first part of the year, but when it goes to CDA, it stays there for the winter (trying this for the 1st time.)  Dont worry, my ski buddy in Seattle is a long time friend with a 98 Ski Natique, so I still get to go (even though the wake sucks in comparison to the Epic's).

[2 tall]

Thanks for the reply Curtis on the fuel economy. I have been reading some other forums with Nautique and Malibu owners and they are claiming 6-8 gph on their 23 foot wakeboard boats. I don't believe that for a second, a four cylinder runabout does 3-5 gph. Everyone I have ever asked about gph on the big block ski boats has to re-fuel about every 3-3 1/2 hours (of actual running time) on a 36 gallon tank. I asked a guy this summer how his Sunsetter did on fuel, he said they ran 7 or 8 trips through the course and filled up again... ouch

If anyone out there has any other data on Toyotas I would love it..

[curtis]

2Tall & Forum,
I'm going back to last year and figure what my total consumption of fuel and how many
hours for the whole season that we enjoyed. It will be a good average # due to what
takes place on our Epic22. Not very much idle time. Barefoot,Slalom,Kneeboard,Wakeboard.
Just idle back to a skier. Back at ya tommorrow.
Curtis